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  • MikeDrennan
    Contributor - Level 3
    2020-08-26

    Serious question for those that understand the inner workings of the Behringer Wing console:

    Why do I perceive such a noticeable degradation in audio quality from a DP48 vs. direct from the board?

    I just picked up a DP48, hoping that it would solve my greatest beef about the P16s...sound quality.  I was disheartened to discover that it still pales in comparison to a soloed bus coming right off of the built in headphone ports on the Wing.  If I create a headphone monitor mix straight off the board, my soul is happy.  There is clarity, punch, articulation and nuance from any source I throw at it.

    If I send the same source straight off of the preamp and down AES50 to the DP48, the result is flat and lifeless.  I've tried eq tricks etc with some small inprovement, but it's still no comparison sonically. 

    Can someone explain why this is true?  Are the headphone converters on the board that much better than a system that was purpose built to be a monitor mixer?  Is it a limitation of AES50?  Some sort of compression at work?  I just want to understand why they'd be different. 

    I'm afraid the DP48 will be headed back to Sweetwater if I can't get this resolved; the bells and whistles are fun, but my number one priority is pristine audio.

    Thank you all.

     

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    • MikeDrennan
      Nigel67 Hi Mike, I will put your question to the designers and ask for their input. Will get back to you as soon as I have an answer
      • August 26, 2020
      • DP48 Sound Quality vs. Wing Headphone Outs
        Nigel67 Hi Mike. We need to try and establish where this degradation of audio is happening. The DP48 can send audio bi-directionally - mix A and mix B. The signal you have sent to the DP48, can you return it straight back to the Wing and then solo that signal and see if you can still here the audio degradation. This eliminates the analogue output circuitry and will identify whether it is the headphone output that is your issue. Many thanks
        • August 26, 2020
      • DP48 Sound Quality vs. Wing Headphone Outs
        Nigel67 Another question for you Mike. What is the make of the headphones you are using. Do you know the impedance of them? Thanks
        • August 26, 2020
      • DP48 Sound Quality vs. Wing Headphone Outs
        MikeDrennan Nigel...I will try something like you have suggested when I get home. Returning the signal from the DP48 to the Wing and checking its integrity against “straight off the board signal”. The headphones are a high quality Sennheiser over the ear. I will have to check impedance and get back to you. The problem is, I am using the exact same headphones to A/B, and it clearly sounds better through the Wing.
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        • August 26, 2020
      • DP48 Sound Quality vs. Wing Headphone Outs
        Nigel67 It does sound like the headamp circuitry in the DP48, but the test you are going to do will identify this. I am sure as you have said that there is nothing wrong with the headphones, just need to know the impedance so that we can check with the same here.
        • August 26, 2020
      • DP48 Sound Quality vs. Wing Headphone Outs
        Nigel67 Do you have the impedance of the headphones Mike please or the model number so that I can look up the impedance? The output impedance of the Wing headphones is 23 ohms and the DP48 is 18 Ohms so this may make some difference depending on the headphones that you are using and there is also an AC coupling cap on the DP48 which will probably also affect the frequency response on the headphones. These differences do not influence the audio quality though.
        • August 28, 2020
    • MikeDrennan
      GaryHiggins FWIW I don't find this to be true for the DP48 (or the P16M). I find both to be quite good. "Straight off the preamps" is pre everything and should be sort of flat. So is this then an issue of aes50 ch source and the tap of those sources? Local ch's sourced direct from aes50 are pre everything. Also, what is the Wing monitor source, Main AFL? I have not seen many (none actually) complaints regarding sound quality raised with these either here or on Facebook so I have to believe that maybe there are some settings being missed along the way. That or my ears are more shot than I previously thought.
      • August 26, 2020
      • DP48 Sound Quality vs. Wing Headphone Outs
        MikeDrennan Gary, thanks for chiming in. There is a noticeable difference. Even a bandmate commented on it, without my influence. My A/B setup is such: Bus 10 carries the mix for the drummer's in-ears. We have a Mimic Pro EDrum module connected to a stage box on AES50A and routed to a stereo channel, let's say channel 10. The bus solo is set to AFL. Bus 10 is set as the source for Monitor 1 in the monitor section. When monitored through headphones from one of the two Wing headphone outs, the drums are pristine and beautiful sounding. For path B, I am sending a pre-fader user signal from channel 10 down AES50C to the DP48. When I monitor the drums through this source, they are flat and boring. There is no EQ happening anywhere, and since the user signal is a pre-fader tap, I would have assumed that I'd be getting the exact same audio quality as I do from the bus monitor, which also has zero EQ or dynamics applied. I am sending a processed stereo signal from the drum module, so all of the processing on the drums arrives at the preamp and *should be the same from either the DP48 feed, or the bus monitor section. It isn't. I can't understand it.
        • August 26, 2020
      • DP48 Sound Quality vs. Wing Headphone Outs
        GaryHiggins So drums are coming in on one ch? Seems like you may be listening to a stereo version on the Wing sending a mono aes50 ch to the dp48. Sending a stereo bus via aes50 requires 2 ch's. If you look at aes50 as the output group and then select buses as the source group, there is a a Bus10 R and Bus10 L. You would need both. You may be only hearing a mono ch on the dp48. I think a user ch that is designated as a bus may be essentially mono.
        • August 27, 2020
      • DP48 Sound Quality vs. Wing Headphone Outs
        MikeDrennan Gary, sorry for the confusion. I am routed to a stereo channel on DP48. If I can get up to the studio tonight I’ll try and take some pics of my routing. I’m definitely getting a stereo signal in the headphones off the DP48. It just doesn’t sound as good.
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        • August 27, 2020
      • DP48 Sound Quality vs. Wing Headphone Outs
        GaryHiggins Maybe you can share your snp file here using drobox or similar? It would maybe save a lot of questions by allowing a direct comparison.
        • August 28, 2020
      • DP48 Sound Quality vs. Wing Headphone Outs
        MikeDrennan Gary, this weekend I am going to try and create a simple SCN to demonstrate my problem. Then I will share it. I’m also trying to figure out how to record what I’m hearing through each source to see if others can tell the difference.
        • August 28, 2020
    • MikeDrennan
      Indiana Thats odd. Our DP48's all have great sound quality. All my musicians are overjoyed at how much better it is than the old DBX units we had with our Soundcraft.
      • August 28, 2020
      • DP48 Sound Quality vs. Wing Headphone Outs
        MikeDrennan I agree. I would expect the DP48 to give me identical quality to the headphone outs on the Wing. Trying to figure it out.
        • August 28, 2020
    • MikeDrennan
      MikeDrennan All, I had a breakthrough today when I discovered that an old power user tip from my X32 days also works on the Wing...initialize console :) Sometimes when I’m working up a scene and experimenting I’ll lose my way a bit. I initialized the console in order to create a basic, no frills scene file to demonstrate my problem. I assigned my sources, reset my gain structure, and voílà...ear candy. Thanks for the support and suggestions that put me on the right track to a light bulb moment.
      • August 28, 2020
      • DP48 Sound Quality vs. Wing Headphone Outs
        GaryHiggins Glad it's sorted!
        • August 29, 2020
      • DP48 Sound Quality vs. Wing Headphone Outs
        MikeDrennan Gary, I also wanted to tell you that I missed the “long press” to assign it as a stereo channel on DP48. Even though I had signal coming in on left and right ears, it must have been stereo summed to mono. Once I figured out how to get the stereo assignment, that’s when I got what I was after. Then I could hear all of the beautiful nuance of the Mimic Pro stereo samples just as I could off of the board. You were right!
        • August 30, 2020
  • vszalma
    Newcomer - Level 1
    2020-08-25

    Hello, 

    Is there a list of compatible USB devices for recording on the Behringer X Air 12 Mixer? Or a list of what the technical specs are?

    I've tried several and can only get 2 to work. They are my oldest and smallest thumb drives. If it is a size issue, it is very dissappointing since the largest I can get to work is 4GB.

    Thanks for any feedback.

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    • vszalma
      DaveMorrison It's a common problem. It only will see certain drives and a usable drive can get old and then stop working. I use a 32GB regularly. The drive has to be formatted with FAT32. It's been reported that using a PC to format it works best. Flash drives that are off brand and/or old can be unstable and unusable in these mixers (X-airs, M-Airs, X32 and M32).
      • August 25, 2020
      • X Air 12 Digital Mixer compatible USB device
        vszalma Thanks. Interestingly it is my oldest ones that work. The other ones I've tried and newer and I did format them with a PC. But I did just try another one that is 16GB and newer and it worked. So it must just be very touchy with what works and what doesn't.
        • August 25, 2020
      • X Air 12 Digital Mixer compatible USB device
        DaveMorrison I just formatted a 64GB Samsung on my Mac (Mojave) with Fat32, and it's working fine.
        • August 25, 2020
      • X Air 12 Digital Mixer compatible USB device
        DaveMorrison They are.
        • August 25, 2020
    • vszalma
      KellsBells Can't get mine to work. Just bought a brand new 256GB Samsung flash drive. Formatted in FAT32, then tried FAT16, NTSA...nothing works.
      • September 28, 2020
    • vszalma
      DaveMorrison I haven't heard of anyone using a 256GB. 64 and 128 often work (but not always).
      • September 28, 2020
    • vszalma
      lassagne In same way I have some issues to read the USB device in my W air 12. First I had MP3 format and finaly I have find that WAV is the good one. BUT (I am french ...) but only for some of my titles. I would use the USB like reader for my backtrack ... Thanks for your help!
      • October 16, 2020
  • TwinTurboz
    Newcomer - Level 1
    2020-08-24

    Just picked up an M32 and its been a learning curve.  My previous interface was a Mackie 1640i (16 channel).  I occasionally record bands in my home studio and needed additional preamps (yes more than 16).  Plus the additional options for monitor sends to musicians is a blessing.   So the Midas hit the spot.  I was hoping there was an option to tap the USB signal after the low cuts, comp., eq, etc.. of each of the 32 preamps. But that is not possible :(  .   But I found a way to somewhat do it.  But with that option, 16 channels is the limit.  Which is what I could do with the Mackie.   My question is and maybe Im way off base.  But could the X32 and M32 be programmed (bios/os) as a stand alone "Studio Console" ?   Option to tap all 32 channels after the eq section.  The Mackie 1640i had a button on each channel strip to tap before or after eq.  Maybe Music Tribe needs to do a couple Bios settings.  One for "FOH" work and a strictly "Studio" system.  Yes I know one can send all 32 channels back into the mixer and then record a stereo mix.  But I want to use the M32/X32 eq sections during the recording.  Are there any "Mods" out there ?  Just want all 32 card signals to be after the eq's.  Maybe a new bios version to add that option ?  Thanks.

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    0 90
    • TwinTurboz
      Paul_Vannatto Yes you can setup a routing to have signals to the DAW after channel processign (gate, EQ, comp, etc.) and you can do it for all 32 USB signals. You would route 16 channels through the Routing, Out 1-16 and another through the Routing, Ultranet, adjusting each channel's taps on those screens. Then assign those banks of 8 to the Routing, Card Out screen.

      But why would you want to do that? The thing is that doing it that way, whatever you adjust in the EQ, comp, etc. will be part of those tracks and cannot be changed in the future. For example, if you have a bass track with a various EQ settings, if later you realize that the EQ is not the best, it will mean that you will have to redo that track (have the bass player return to re-play that track).

      On the other hand, if you record the bass track with no processing, you can use VST plugins to process (EQ, compress, etc.) post recording. Then later if you don't like that particular sound, you can change the VST or any of the settings.
      • August 23, 2020
    • TwinTurboz
      TwinTurboz I use out 1-12 for my 6 iem feeds to my live room (stereo). So using the xlr outs will not work. Every routing option, I found online, not utilizing the Aux 1-16 connections will be limited to 16 tracks. Even using the new "user" settings will end up at 16 processed tracks. Yes I realize any processing will be permanent. Bass guitar I always DI. But having the option for the USB card to "tap" after processing is a nice option. Now is the USB tap after the low/hi-cut ? From what I read it taps preamp before cuts. I have not tried recording anything using the low cut to see. I just need an option to tap signal before or after channel processing (pre-fad). Maybe Music Tribe could easily make it an option in another update ? Thanks for the reply.
      • August 23, 2020
      • Midas M32 / Behringer X32  for Studio only use.
        Paul_Vannatto Having more tap options has been requested numerous times in the 8+ years of the X32/M32 product life and the response has been consistently the same that it is not possible, due to the limitations of the (aging) DSP design. Since you are using the Outputs 1-12 for IEM, I would suggest that you consider getting an X32 Rack to add to your eco-system - either to handle the IEM requirements or the recording requirements. Another option is to consider the new Behringer Wing.
        • August 23, 2020
    • TwinTurboz
      GaryHiggins Looks like you maybe still have the aux out routing menu free so that and the Ultranet out menu will get you up to 22 usb ch with full ch processing. You have out 13-16 left too so perhaps a few more there? Using all those as part of a user out menu could get you close to 26 ch’s routed in any order you choose, not 32 ch’s but pretty decent. Another thought is get some DP48’s to use for your in ear monitors and free up more or all of the outputs 1-16 menu.
      • August 24, 2020
    • TwinTurboz
      TwinTurboz If I had an extra $1,000 I would look at the DP48's. Would need 3 DP48's, seeing how each can process 2 independent mixes. Do you need the "Hub4" also ? Or can you daisy chain the DP48's without the hub ? If the hub is needed, that would drive the price up even more.
      • August 24, 2020
      • Midas M32 / Behringer X32  for Studio only use.
        Paul_Vannatto Yes you can daisy-chain the DP48
        • August 24, 2020
      • Midas M32 / Behringer X32  for Studio only use.
        GaryHiggins I won’t say you won’t benefit from the hub. (Not available to buy here in the US yet anyway) But you should be able to work around it with the thru ports and daisy chain. Perhaps the main issue, which may not be effect a studio as much as a live stage, is without the hub or some Poe injector setup, you need to plug a power supply for each DP48.. That is not a deal killer but can be a pain and harder to keep organized. True they are not cheap but work very well and in your case would free up the output assignments needed for post ch processing. As Paul suggested, an x32 rack would be another option or a used x32 producer/compact to handle the monitors.
        • August 24, 2020
    • TwinTurboz
      TwinTurboz Good deal. Thanks Paul. I should have researched this issue before I started using the 16 xlr outs to feed my headphone amp. I had to rework one of my old snakes to have xlr female connections, plus I bought another snake to replace the one I converted. Spent about $400 on all the connections and hardware. Cheaper than buying 3 DP48's, but I didn't realize I couldn't tap after processing. I will use what aux outs I have left and the 13-16 xlr's to at least get a few channels to be post eq. Set up channel 29-32 to be pre fader. Then I will start saving up for 3 DP48's. Never ending :) But I got the Midas for a heck of a deal and couldnt pass it up. Thanks again Paul and Gary for the help.
      • August 24, 2020
  • Scherzo
    Newcomer - Level 1
    2020-08-22

    We plan to run a line out from a bus on our x32 to our Mevo Start streaming camera. We want to have someone adjusting that streaming mix via iPhone/iPad. Does anyone know if there is an iOS mixing app for x32 that allows you to hear your mix right from the app/iPhone? 

    Thanks!

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    • Scherzo
      DaveMorrison There isn't. The X32 does not send any audio over the ethernet port. A wired connection or wireless IEM would be your best bet to avoid latency. You could use bluetooth if you can tolerate a long delay.
      • August 21, 2020
  • Apexpeakmusic
    Newcomer - Level 1
    2020-08-20

    When my X32 x-usb is connected to my MAC in Logic or Garageband I cannot get the MAC's Output to go to my headset out to drive my monitors.  I can record from the X32 in the DAWs and see the levels but no ouput sound.  When I switch off the X32 the MAC willl then play the recorded channels through the output (headphones).  Called Apple and they said even though this use to work before the 10.15.6 update if was the 3rd party software's issue since it only effects the MAC when it is being used

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    0 150
    • Apexpeakmusic
      KyleJohnson Hi Gary, interesting considering the only software involved is Apple software. Anyway, it sounds like it could be a routing problem. How do you have the ROUTING>INPUT page on your mixer setup? To get playback from the computer into the X32, some of the inputs must be set to CARD.
      • August 20, 2020
    • Apexpeakmusic
      Apexpeakmusic Thanks Kyle for responding. Do you think if I reset the X32 to factory defaults this would be a good troubleshooting effort?
      • August 24, 2020
      • Audio Issues with X32 and MAC Catalina 10.15.6
        KyleJohnson It can be a good place to start seeing as we don't know where the problem lies. Assuming you checked your input routing already. Before you reset your mixer make sure to back up any scene files you have to a flash drive or computer for safe keeping.
        • August 24, 2020
  • DickStraathof
    Contributor - Level 3
    2020-08-20

    Hi,
    I've attempted two times now to send in a warranty service request for my ?WING desk.
    after hitting 'submit' there is a spinning wheel for hours now but the request is not passing through.
    What can I do?

    DickS.

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    • DickStraathof
      RexBeckett This can happen when some field in your profile or the Care request is missing or considered invalid. I suggest that you make screenshots of your Care form before hitting Submit and email them to [email protected].
      • August 20, 2020
    • DickStraathof
      DickStraathof Hi Rex, thanks for the suggestion, i just have e-mailed a print-screen to Alexander.

      Best regards,
      DickS.
      • August 20, 2020
    • DickStraathof
      Dale_M Hi Dick as discussed I have intercepted this one and you now have the ticket.
      • August 20, 2020
  • Soundenterprise
    Newcomer - Level 2
    2020-08-19

    Is this possible?

     

    Want to connect DM8000 DSP to X32 Rack with Ultranet

     

    DM8000 will be sending 15 Ultranet channels to x32 Rack. X32 rack will use these as inputs such as AES50 or Card Inputs would. 

     

    IS THIS POSSIBLE?

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    • Soundenterprise
      DavidKnighton Hello John,
      Ultranet is a 1 way protocol from the M/X32 consoles, meaning it sends from the console but does not receive.
      • August 19, 2020
    • Soundenterprise
      Soundenterprise Thats what I needed to know! Thanks!
      • August 20, 2020
    • Soundenterprise
      DavidKnighton Hello again John,
      It occurred to me that you could utilize a DM8008 in this setup. Essentially, the DM8000 would provide Ultranet to the DM8008, which would in turn provide 8 analog outputs. You can daisy chain two DM8008 for a total of 16 analog outputs from an Ultranet send. Then you could simply patch the analog channels into the console's local inputs. Alternatively, you could fit the DM8000 and the X32 both with Dante cards and that could achieve a direct connection between the two devices. If you wanted to go all out, there is the DM8500 which is has Dante built in, and by comparison is far superior to the DM8000.
      • August 21, 2020
  • PetriOjanperä
    Contributor - Level 3
    2020-08-19

    When can we expect x32-mix to be updated to work with all the functions that came with firmware 4.0? Or is it that wings Co-pilot is taking all the focus?

    And yes, I know that older version of x32-mix works fine with new firmware and that I can use Mixing station instead of x32-mix. 

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    • PetriOjanperä
      NicJonesMT Hi Petri.
      As we are working remotely I don't currently have access to an X32, but could you please confirm what features you cannot control? I can then pass this on to the development team.
      • August 19, 2020
      • X32-mix update
        PetriOjanperä I’m using iPad to control my x32 and working RTA metering and 1 to 1 routing would be nice features. As also there could be an assignable button for tap delay.
        • August 19, 2020
  • lpagross
    Newcomer - Level 1
    2020-08-18

    Can anyone tell me what the difference between the two Cues, Scenes & Snippets tabs at the top of the Show Control window are?

    0 65
    • lpagross
      RexBeckett The left set refer to items stored on the controlling PC. The right set refer to those stored on the console.
      • August 18, 2020
      • What is the difference in Show Control
        lpagross Thanks.
        • August 18, 2020
    • lpagross
      GaryHiggins This question happens quite often, it also is easy to reverse one's memory as to which is which. It would be great to mark them with a header of say "PC" for the left 3 and "Mixer" for the right 3 in a future version (if that ever happens) of X/M32-Edit
      • August 18, 2020
      • What is the difference in Show Control
        lpagross Thanks. Good suggestion too.
        • August 18, 2020
    • lpagross
      DavidKnighton Hello Gary Higgins. If you look at the first 3 tabs CUES, SCENES, SNIPPETS, you'll see that the icon is actually a computer desktop with a keyboard. This is how you tell which tabs are local to the computer as opposed to what's saved into the console.
      • August 18, 2020
      • What is the difference in Show Control
        GaryHiggins Thanks Dave, I never noticed that before! Must have been on that page a zillion times :-) Classic case of not seeing the forest cause the trees were in the way!
        • August 19, 2020
  • BigFire
    Contributor - Level 1
    2020-08-17

    First of all, you're doing an amazing job! The Wing is incredible for features/money. I've used it live, in a remote recording situation, and as a DAW controller. The only 2 things I really wish I had at my disposal are 2 FX emulations - I'm missing an LA-3A and some kind of pitch correction. Any chance we may get these in future updates?

    Thanks!

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    • BigFire
      Dale_M Hi Craig we can't make any promises but we will pass your remarks over to the R&D team.
      • August 17, 2020
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