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Contributor - Level 2

Android 1.5 - Mute button draw bug in DCAs

Edit: Only apparent when using Hard Mutes

The word MUTE on the button is coloured red when the channel (or bus etc) is muted from elsewhere, such as a mute group, otherwise it is a very light grey.

When switching to a layer that contains any DCAs the colour of the writing on the DCA mute buttons is not updated and stays the same as the layer you were on previously.

This seems to only be an issue on DCA strips.

Really loving this update though! Smiley Happy
DaveMeadowcroft Contributor - Level 2 2016-01-23

2016-01-23

Android 1.5 - Mute button draw bug in DCAs

Edit: Only apparent when using Hard Mutes

The word MUTE on the button is coloured red when the channel (or bus etc) is muted from elsewhere, such as a mute group, otherwise it is a very light grey.

When switching to a layer that contains any DCAs the colour of the writing on the DCA mute buttons is not updated and stays the same as the layer you were on previously.

This seems to only be an issue on DCA strips.

Really loving this update though! Smiley Happy

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Contributor - Level 2

Re: Android 1.5 - Mute button draw bug in DCAs

I'm glad I didn't go for it 1 day before my gig, since I use DCA's regularly with my workflow. Bad enough that mute groups were no-existent but at least mute worked and indicated correctly in the V1.21. All in all the gig went fine even with the build-in WiFi.
All the backup was in place but the area survey showed no conflicts and the only visible Wifi router had a on/off switch. Yep I turned it off. Zero dropouts in the 70 ft. venue. Lots of phones sending pics and texting but not via WiFi.
Contributor - Level 2

Re: Android 1.5 - Mute button draw bug in DCAs

It's not a killer on the DCAs as you can just rely on the Red outline and the bug is only apparent if using hard mutes.

If you rely on DCAs and you assign anything to more than 1 DCA group (e.g. Channel 1 in DCA groups 1 and 2) then don't update!
In 1.5 if you are already assigned to one group and you try to assign to an additional group it replaces the existing assignment, so it's one group only or none.
Triber

Re: Android 1.5 - Mute button draw bug in DCAs

Dave Meadowcroft;67997 wrote:
It's not a killer on the DCAs as you can just rely on the Red outline and the bug is only apparent if using hard mutes.

Dear Dave,
X AIR 1.5 now supports indication of Hard Mutes and DCA Mutes on X AIR mixers. In order to inform the user about the status of individual channel Mutes (i.e. the red frame and triangle) versus the indirect, associated group Mutes (i.e. Mute writing turning red), both signals must work independently. I suppose that is what you are referring to?

If you rely on DCAs and you assign anything to more than 1 DCA group (e.g. Channel 1 in DCA groups 1 and 2) then don't update!
In 1.5 if you are already assigned to one group and you try to assign to an additional group it replaces the existing assignment, so it's one group only or none.


We have changed the grouping system in all apps and in the firmware towards a proper DCA grouping inside the mixer. The reason is that the previous IDCA solution created a lot of unnecessary network traffic, that very often slowed down the app response to fader moves, and caused lagging apps especially when several clients were used to control the same mixer.

The mixer internal DCA now only needs one command and feedback for all assigned channels and is therefore much more efficient from a network and reliability standpoint. As a result DCAs perform much better and with DCA Mutes active they also allow indication of channels that are muted via the DCA they are assigned to. This was not the case before, when an open channel might have been muted 'secretly' through the IDCA it was assigned to.

Assigning channels to more than one DCA is rather risky than beneficial for the vast majority of customers and applications using a small mixer like the X AIR. We preferred a 1:1 assignment reducing the likelihood of inadvertently blocking a signal for less experienced users. It also allows properly indicating the assignment in the channel strips of X AIR EDIT and X AIR iPad, along with the new auto-mixing information.

The combination of 4 available DCA’s with layer editing possibilities offers a whole lot of fader layout customization. There is hardly any flexibility lost and nothing is actually missing, even though the workflows may need to be adjusted slightly. However, the remote app and network performance is much improved, snapshots and group commands load instantaneously onto the mixer, and there is a better visibility.

I understand that there is always pros and cons, whatever move you make. Anyway,
I hope that my reasoning makes sense to you too, even if it involves readjusting some habits.
Best regards,
Jan.
_____________________________________________ Jan Duwe, Product Portfolio Manager MUSIC TRIBE Brands DE GmbH
Super Contributor - Level 2

Re: Android 1.5 - Mute button draw bug in DCAs

Jan Duwe;68031 wrote:

We have changed the grouping system in all apps and in the firmware towards a proper DCA grouping inside the mixer. The reason is that the previous IDCA solution created a lot of unnecessary network traffic, that very often slowed down the app response to fader moves, and caused lagging apps especially when several clients were used to control the same mixer.


Can you elaborate on this? I never checked the network traffic associated with an iDCA as I thought it was only emulating a "real" DCA by moving two faders whne the iDCA fader is moved. In other words: The network taffic should not be any different from that caused by moving two faders simultaneously.

If it behaves the way I described I wouldn't say that network traffic was unnecessary: You would only use an iDCA once you run out of real DCAs or would want to control something that isn't assignable to a DCA. So the alternative to an iDCA is to move two or more sliders simultaneously by hand. Which results in the very same amount of then *necessary* network traffic

Jan Duwe;68031 wrote:

The mixer internal DCA now only needs one command and feedback for all assigned channels and is therefore much more efficient from a network and reliability standpoint.


Sure, real DCAs are favorable while iDCAs can give further convenience.

Jan Duwe;68031 wrote:

The combination of 4 available DCA’s with layer editing possibilities offers a whole lot of fader layout customization. There is hardly any flexibility lost and nothing is actually missing, even though the workflows may need to be adjusted slightly.


Maybe you can up the number of DCAs in the next firmware release. One DCA makes just one multiplication in the DSP for each channel. I guess the hardware is capable of this.

If DSP capabilites would become limited, though, I'd very much prefer to get adjustable output delay instead of more DCAs

Kind regards,
Felix
Contributor - Level 3

Re: Android 1.5 - Mute button draw bug in DCAs

Thanks Jan for explaining some of Behringer's thinking behind the operational changes. Smiley Happy
Contributor - Level 2

Re: Android 1.5 - Mute button draw bug in DCAs

Hi Jan,

Thanks for responding Smiley Happy

Jan Duwe;68031 wrote:
Dear Dave,
X AIR 1.5 now supports indication of Hard Mutes and DCA Mutes on X AIR mixers. In order to inform the user about the status of individual channel Mutes (i.e. the red frame and triangle) versus the indirect, associated group Mutes (i.e. Mute writing turning red), both signals must work independently. I suppose that is what you are referring to?

Yes, the problem is with hard mutes on - the colour of the writing in a DCA strip is not refreshed when changing to a layer with a DCA strip in it.
To reproduce - try in offline mode or after initialization so all channels are unmuted:

  • Enable hard mutes
  • Assign Channel 1 to mute group 1 and then engage the mute group. Channel 1 "MUTE" goes red as expected.
  • Now goto the DCA layer - DCA 1 "MUTE" is red.
  • Goto FXSnd / Main layer - FXSnd1 should be unmuted and "MUTE" is grey as expected
  • Go back to DCA layere and now DCA 1 "MUTE" is grey

Jan Duwe;68031 wrote:
Assigning channels to more than one DCA is rather risky than beneficial for the vast majority of customers and applications using a small mixer like the X AIR. We preferred a 1:1 assignment reducing the likelihood of inadvertently blocking a signal for less experienced users. It also allows properly indicating the assignment in the channel strips of X AIR EDIT and X AIR iPad, along with the new auto-mixing information.
Really, we're limiting features to defend against "less experienced users"? I understand the thinking but I have to disagree unfortunately.
Contributor - Level 2

Re: Android 1.5 - Mute button draw bug in DCAs

In my case I managed with the four internal DCA's and the associated mutes and I would have to agree with Jan that dual use of channels in differing sets of DCA's is simply asking for trouble. More internal DCA's would be a welcome addition to the XR18. I also assigned the tops to L&R and the two subs to aux's instead of adding a additional PA+ . It gives me a little more flexibility in tops/sub balance and with less equipment. In the four hour Dinner and a Show gig I had two professionals and a bunch of amateurs. My biggest problem of course were the amateurs that thought they can handle mics with a couple of minutes of practice.
Contributor - Level 2

Re: Android 1.5 - Mute button draw bug in DCAs

Jan Duwe;68031 wrote:


I understand that there is always pros and cons, whatever move you make. Anyway,
I hope that my reasoning makes sense to you too, even if it involves readjusting some habits.
Best regards,
Jan.


I really appreciate this response Jan and would love to see more of it. Taking the time to explain decisions is really helpful. (In the future I think it would be better and more transparent to include any loss of functionality in the release notes of upgrades rather than have us hunt to find what has been removed)

I haven't posted about the android update yet because I haven't had chance to play around with it. My gut feeling is that whilst its unfortunate to lose functionality I.e. IDCA's I can at least see the logic behind it. I have been asking for better parity between the apps and I appreciate that keeping IDCAs doesn't help in that regard. If we had all been given just the 4 internal DCAs from the outset I think we would have been happy, unfortunately having had the luxury of unlimited IDCAs and then losing them now feels like a backward step.

In regard to Dave's point about the ability to assign 1 channel to multiple internal DCAs I can see both sides of the argument but I lean towards Dave's stance. Could we have a switch that turns the ability on/off? In the interest of looking after inexperienced users my suggestion would be to address the lack of a user manual and not to dumb down the mixer for the rest of us. Smiley Very Happy
Contributor - Level 2

Re: Android 1.5 - Mute button draw bug in DCAs

Can I ask a question Jan?

Are there any plans to change the OSC implementation to an enum from the bitmask for the DCA groups? I ask because if they are to stay the same I can knock up an Android app for DCA assignment as I did for Windows, if they are to change then it would be a waste of time.