DavidSev Contributor - Level 2 2015-05-21

2015-05-21

Transparent gain adjustments

It'd be nice if there was a (toggleable) feature so when I change the gain, it automatically adjusts the fader and any pre-fade sends etc, such that the gain change has no effect on the final level.

It's pretty routine for my singers to mumble the soundcheck, I compensate for this but I don't always get it right so sometimes a mid-set gain change is required. I've also before had people hand a microphone off to someone else, which can sometimes require a massive gain change.

If there's no monitor send it's easy to change the gain without anyone noticing, but otherwise it's a right pain. Having the desk be able to automate it would be nice.

And while we're on that topic, it would be great if it could analyse the last few minutes of audio and give a suggested figure, and tell me how shoddy my gain staging is.

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Super Contributor - Level 2

Re: Transparent gain adjustments

If you have the gain set rightly for a wimpy singer, and a loud singer takes that mic, said singer will be louder in every bus to which the channel is routed. So if you turn the gain down, the singer goes down the same amount in every bus, and thus all should be well.
Indianapolis, IN
Contributor - Level 2

transparent gain adjustments

Hi David,

just noticed your request for linked (toggled) channel gain and fader.

I think it would be very useful.

I use the mixer for musical shows etc with many scenes. After the initial sound check on the individual cast members I still find the during the first full rehearsal there needs to be "gain" adjustments. The new fader levels are stored on snap shots for after rehearsal correction of channel gains to keep the fader level at 0db.

How nice it would be to reset the fader to 0dB with the channel gain being automatically adjusted to the correct level.

I support the request.

Peter (UK)
Contributor - Level 2

Re: Transparent gain adjustments

A big +1 for this request! This is something that happens very often, so a big +1!
http://www.bertdevries.soundproductions.nl ------ http://www.geluidsman.biz ------ http://www.synthstudiodevries.com
Contributor - Level 2

Re: Transparent gain adjustments

Very interesting feature! But I don't think it is so simple.
Think about all the dynamics processing involved in the channel path from pre-amp to speakers.
To reflect the gain adjustment in a transparent way there will be so much more than changing the final volume of the channel.
Anyway, even if in a simple form, it will be very appreciated, so +1 for me too.
"Music is the closest thing to magic that we have"
Contributor - Level 2

Re: Transparent gain adjustments

My first thoughts are this would be quite simple. I'm interested in what makes people think it would be hard to implement, maybe I'm missing something

As gain goes up by 5db, fader goes down by 5db. Is that what you are thinking?
Contributor - Level 2

Re: Transparent gain adjustments

Phil Smith;74372 wrote:
As gain goes up by 5db, fader goes down by 5db. Is that what you are thinking?
You have to do the same for all pre-fader auxes/FXs too - but it ain't rocket science Smiley Wink . It might also be important to compensate the recording outputs too - perhaps a bit tougher.
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Contributor - Level 2

Re: Transparent gain adjustments

Phil Smith;74372 wrote:
My first thoughts are this would be quite simple. I'm interested in what makes people think it would be hard to implement, maybe I'm missing something

As gain goes up by 5db, fader goes down by 5db. Is that what you are thinking?


Well, if the db compensation is done immediately after the gain, it would be easy, but it requires a new post-gain trim function which is not preset at the moment.
If the gain adjustment is done at final slider lever (for all output the channel goes in), than it will be very difficult because every dynamics processing step introduces a non-linearity in channel gain and 2dB less of channel gain will not reflect in 2dB less of final volume. Moreover this can be different for each output because in some output may be involved more dynamics processing than others. This is why I say it's difficoult.
"Music is the closest thing to magic that we have"
Contributor - Level 2

Re: Transparent gain adjustments

Thanks I see your point. One way around this could be to take a measurement from the rta before gain and once again after fader. Compare the two after adjusting channel gain and then adjust the fader proportionally. Do you think this would work?
Volunteer Moderator

Re: Transparent gain adjustments

I've been reading this thread with great interest. With a bit of coding, I think I can provide a basic gain readjustment functionality in Live Toolbox. At least it is worth a try. It will need some extensive testing and tweaking to get it working as expected.

The way I see it, it could be accomplished as follows:
* Get the current fader levels before anything is adjusted and store in memory.
* Do the soundcheck, adjusting faders, etc.
* Get the new values of the fader levels.
* Convert both original and new fader levels to db and calculate the differences.
* Adjust the headamp gain levels in db to compensate for the fader level changes
* Adjust the gate and compression threshold values to compensate for the changes to the gains.
* Make any other adjustments - TBD

Step 1 can already be done using the tidbit Store command
Steps 3-6 can be combined in a new tidbit command (eg. Regain)

Thoughts?
Paul Vannatto, Volunteer Forum Administrator and Moderator. Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos or mark it as a solution!
Volunteer Moderator

Re: Transparent gain adjustments

Do we have access to the trim control in osc? Then it should only be a matter of trim the same amount that the ha-gain is tweaked.
Robert Lofgren | Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos and/or mark it as a solution!