DavidSev Contributor - Level 2 2015-05-21

2015-05-21

Transparent gain adjustments

It'd be nice if there was a (toggleable) feature so when I change the gain, it automatically adjusts the fader and any pre-fade sends etc, such that the gain change has no effect on the final level.

It's pretty routine for my singers to mumble the soundcheck, I compensate for this but I don't always get it right so sometimes a mid-set gain change is required. I've also before had people hand a microphone off to someone else, which can sometimes require a massive gain change.

If there's no monitor send it's easy to change the gain without anyone noticing, but otherwise it's a right pain. Having the desk be able to automate it would be nice.

And while we're on that topic, it would be great if it could analyse the last few minutes of audio and give a suggested figure, and tell me how shoddy my gain staging is.

  • 0 Kudos
  • 25 Replies
  • Reply
Volunteer Moderator

Re: Transparent gain adjustments

Robert Lofgren;74570 wrote:
Do we have access to the trim control in osc? Then it should only be a matter of trim the same amount that the ha-gain is tweaked.

Not for the X-Air (according to the X-Air OSC Parameters 1.11.txt). For the X32, trim is available for "digital sources only" (according to Patrick's X32-OSC.pdf, page 19). I think the headamp gains are going to have to be what is adjusted.
Paul Vannatto, Volunteer Forum Administrator and Moderator. Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos or mark it as a solution!
Volunteer Moderator

Re: Transparent gain adjustments

Paul Vannatto;74573 wrote:
Not for the X-Air (according to the X-Air OSC Parameters 1.11.txt). For the X32, trim is available for "digital sources only" (according to Patrick's X32-OSC.pdf, page 19). I think the headamp gains are going to have to be what is adjusted.

For the x32 when you split the HA you get a digital trim. My thinking is that this normally hidden trim might still be active but you need to access it via osc?
Robert Lofgren | Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos and/or mark it as a solution!
Highlighted
Contributor - Level 2

Re: Transparent gain adjustments

Paul Vannatto;74521 wrote:

The way I see it, it could be accomplished as follows:
* Get the current fader levels before anything is adjusted and store in memory.
* Do the soundcheck, adjusting faders, etc.
* Get the new values of the fader levels.
* Convert both original and new fader levels to db and calculate the differences.
* Adjust the headamp gain levels in db to compensate for the fader level changes
* Adjust the gate and compression threshold values to compensate for the changes to the gains.


I think this is a fine workflow for compensate the fader changes with gain adjustments.
I was talking about the opposite, compensate gain adjustments with fader changes.

A possible workflow can be the following:

- get current gain level, gate threshold, comp threshold and all final faders levels.
- store these information as staring point
- do the gain adjustment (manually)
- if dynamics is involved change the gate and compressor thresholds according to the new gain
- if dynamics is not involved change the final faders level according to the new gain

This can maybe work but I see two problems:
1) what if dynamics is switched on/off between the store operation and the gain adjustment?
2) what if there is any dynamics processing as insert in the channel or via bus or whatever?

Conclusion: it won't work in every case.

P.S. I'm a programmer too Smiley Wink
"Music is the closest thing to magic that we have"
Volunteer Moderator

Re: Transparent gain adjustments

Hi Enrico,

Great to have another programmer thinking this through. I reread the posts and realize that I had the process backwards. But it could work with either workflow, depending on the scenario.

I don't quite understand the value of your first point, though (storing all levels at the onset). As I see it, you only need to store what you want to calculate the change difference. In other words, if you store the gain levels of channels 1-16, then do the sound check readjusting the gains as required, calculate the difference (in db) and apply that difference to the current state of whatever you need (fader levels, thresholds, etc.).

To do this would be quite simple. Store the initial values (eg. gains), then use a new tidbit command called Reset (to be created) to calculate the gain differences (per channel) and apply it to whatever you want. For example, 2 tidbits (one before soundcheck, one after) would be

#1.1# "Before Soundcheck"
Store 1 /headamp/##/gain 1-16

#1.1# "After Soundcheck"
# Reset calculates the difference in gain changes, then applies to the following
Reset 1 fader 1-16
Reset 1 gate 1-16
Reset 1 comp 1-16

To accomplish what I suggested with my workflow, it would look like this

#1.1# "Before Soundcheck"
Store 1 /ch/##/mix/fader 1-16

#1.1# "After Soundcheck"
# Reset calculates the difference in fader changes, then applies to the following
Reset 1 gain 1-16
Reset 1 gate 1-16
Reset 1 comp 1-16

Does that make sense?
Paul Vannatto, Volunteer Forum Administrator and Moderator. Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos or mark it as a solution!
Contributor - Level 2

Re: Transparent gain adjustments

Yes, it makes sense to me and it will work I think.
The reason I said "store faders values" was because you need to know where the fader was before to move it, but if you see it as a db difference there is no reason to store the initial value.

That said, I still see the two problems I mentioned before:
1) what if dynamics is switched on/off between the store operation and the gain adjustment?
2) what if there is any dynamics processing as insert in the channel or via bus or whatever?

Moreover I would applythe Reset action to the following:
Reset 1 master fader 1-16
Reset 1 bus 1 fader 1-16
Reset 1 bus 2 fader 1-16
Reset 1 bus 3 fader 1-16
Reset 1 bus 4 fader 1-16
Reset 1 bus 5 fader 1-16
Reset 1 bus 6 fader 1-16
Reset 1 effect send 1 fader 1-16
Reset 1 effect send 2 fader 1-16
Reset 1 effect send 3 fader 1-16
Reset 1 effect send 4 fader 1-16
Reset 1 gate 1-16
Reset 1 comp 1-16
"Music is the closest thing to magic that we have"
Volunteer Moderator

Re: Transparent gain adjustments

Enrico Sau;74774 wrote:
1) what if dynamics is switched on/off between the store operation and the gain adjustment?

From what I see, the dynamic parameters are independent to the on/off switch. Therefore the threshold should be able to be adjusted relative to the gain change, irrespective of the on/off status.

2) what if there is any dynamics processing as insert in the channel or via bus or whatever?

That I'm not sure. It would definitely have to be tested out to find out.

Moreover I would apply the Reset action to the following:
Reset 1 master fader 1-16
Reset 1 bus 1 fader 1-16
Reset 1 bus 2 fader 1-16
Reset 1 bus 3 fader 1-16
Reset 1 bus 4 fader 1-16
Reset 1 bus 5 fader 1-16
Reset 1 bus 6 fader 1-16
Reset 1 effect send 1 fader 1-16
Reset 1 effect send 2 fader 1-16
Reset 1 effect send 3 fader 1-16
Reset 1 effect send 4 fader 1-16
Reset 1 gate 1-16
Reset 1 comp 1-16

Good idea
Paul Vannatto, Volunteer Forum Administrator and Moderator. Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos or mark it as a solution!