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Contributor - Level 2

XR18 latest software release (4-16-2015) question

Hi,

Just downloaded the new firmware (1.09) and X AIR Edit for PC 1.0. Since X Air Edit is a 1.0 release, should I now expect it to be feature complete, including the "Automix" feature I've been waiting for?

Thanks,

Jon Burgstrom
JonBurgstrom Contributor - Level 2 2015-04-16

2015-04-16

XR18 latest software release (4-16-2015) question

Hi,

Just downloaded the new firmware (1.09) and X AIR Edit for PC 1.0. Since X Air Edit is a 1.0 release, should I now expect it to be feature complete, including the "Automix" feature I've been waiting for?

Thanks,

Jon Burgstrom

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Volunteer Moderator

Re: XR18 latest software release (4-16-2015) question

The automix is scheduled for a release later this year. I don't have a timeframe...
Robert Lofgren | Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos and/or mark it as a solution!
Contributor - Level 2

Re: XR18 latest software release (4-16-2015) question

Unfortunatly Automix is still in the hairdresser...
Contributor - Level 2

Re: XR18 latest software release (4-16-2015) question

Hi,

Thanks for the replies. The software release must have been mislabeled then. Industry standards for software have always dictated that a one dot oh release is feature complete, not bug free mind you, but feature complete. So I guess this is really 0.52 release. I hope that they re-label the software release so that others do not get confused.

Thanks again for the info.
Volunteer Moderator

Re: XR18 latest software release (4-16-2015) question

Jon Burgstrom;47309 wrote:
Industry standards for software have always dictated that a one dot oh release is feature complete, not bug free mind you, but feature complete.

Did you ever use MS-DOS 2.0, 4.0, 6.0 or Windows 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 8.0? None of those were complete. Some of those were barely functional. (and yes I endured them all except Win 8.0). Maybe that is why they switched to Win95, Millenium, etc. so that they wouldn't be blamed for not following industry standards Smiley Very Happy
Paul Vannatto, Volunteer Forum Administrator and Moderator
Contributor - Level 2

Re: XR18 latest software release (4-16-2015) question

Hi Paul,

Maybe a good analogy, but IMHO a poor example. I personally have been in the computing field since the late 70's. So yeah I've used all of those OS's and more. When I say that this version is not representative of a one dot oh release, I mean that for any one dot oh release it needs to have the features claimed, in writing of what the manufacture said that it will do. Which Behringer clearly claimed the "Automix" feature would be included in it's functionality. I'm not here to debate when. And I can state that I've got enough experience having developed several software applications over the many years I was employed in the software industry across several consumer based platforms delivered to many tens of millions of end users. If you've been in computing for a while, it's likely that you've probably used software I was personally involved with.

The reason I say your example is bad, is because you leave out all of the hardworking folks that do ship to what is considered industry standards and instead use the example that if Microsoft does it, they are the industry standard. I'm here to tell you they are not, period. Following bad examples like Microsoft just leads to a poor customer experience and a slow downward spiral of lost revenue. In your own software that you have developed, do you claim features that are not implemented? I hope not. Do you explain exactly what you are trying to achieve? I think so. Their are plenty of good reasons to have clear communication with the customer base, including potential customers. I would not want to have some poor individual invest their time and hard earned dollars believing that they had just purchased a product that was out of Beta and into release, after doing some research and finding that in fact the product was not feature complete. Even though there was a version one dot oh to download. Would you? If you read what I originally wrote, "Industry standards for software have always dictated that a one dot oh release is feature complete, not bug free mind you, but feature complete." I really don't recall when Microsoft ever stated a feature that they did not implement in a release. Maybe it was not bug free but it was present. See my point? It is neither here nor there, I really don't care if Behringer labels this release as one dot oh or ten dot oh, their choice.

I would however, recommend that anyone contemplating the purchase of any Behringer product, to test it thoroughly in person, to make sure that the feature set they need is in fact provided as claimed. Even if it says it is so on the Behringer Web site. I'm not Behringer bashing either, so please don't cop to that scenario. Behringer can be a good source for interesting products. I own several and have for years, which I rely upon and they have not let me down. I recommend Behringer products when and to who I can. But unfortunately, Behringer has become way to optimistic in their claims on new products like the shipping date of the X-Touch series, or the feature set of the XR18. In my opinion they need to turn it down a bit, come off of eleven so to speak and do the achievable. Kind of like if you ever heard any Led Zeppelin album, and then heard that album release live, in concert. A bit of a let down in my opinion (un-less you were completely high, again IMHO). What was great on vinyl and the mixing desk just did not translate well, live. But I digress.

Again, thank you Paul for your opinion, even though like mine, it does not mean or change a thing. I hope you continue on with your software development efforts, if nothing else, it confirms what Behringer has done.

Jon Burgstrom
Volunteer Moderator

Re: XR18 latest software release (4-16-2015) question

If you read the product page you'll see


  • Revolutionary Dugan* Auto-Mixing automatically manages microphone gain sharing (future firmware)[COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]

This clearly indicates that this functionality won't be a part of the initial release.

Behringer has announced that they will add much more functionality and features to these mixers. By using your analogy we will almost never reach v1.0, since the x-air is far from feature complete.
Robert Lofgren | Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos and/or mark it as a solution!
Contributor - Level 2

Re: XR18 latest software release (4-16-2015) question

Hi Robert,

Thanks for your response. Yes I believe I've read the product page, located here; http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/XR18.aspx. I'm referring to the "Overview" section, which talks about a feature called "Auto-Mixing" To quote it here:

"Revolutionary Auto-Mixing

When your application calls for a multiple-microphone setup, such as an onstage panel discussion, press conference or courtroom proceeding, etc., it can become a challenge to maintain so many open mics – and preserve maximum gain and priority for the moderator.

A major first for compact audio mixers, our revolutionary X AIR Gain Sharing technology can easily manage fully automated mixes with up to 16 live microphones. Based on the legendary Dan Dugan automix system, the XR18's gain sharing paradigm automatically controls the levels of all selected microphones in real time, without any gating artifacts or noise modulation.

This function dramatically reduces the typical feedback, studio noise and comb filtering challenges that can occur when two, or more mics are in close proximity of each another. X AIR Gain Sharing technology provides a consistent system gain structure, even when multiple speakers are talking at the same time.
"

Your quote comes from here:

"Revolutionary Dugan* Auto-Mixing
automatically manages microphone
gain sharing (future firmware)"

Which is located in the downloadable file http://www.behringer.com/assets/BEHRINGER_P0BI8_XR18_Product-Information-Document.pdf I believe.

Your statement of: "This clearly indicates that this functionality won't be a part of the initial release." doesn't make much sense to me because in the document titled "X AIR Mixer Firmware V 1.07 for X18/XR18" it states that;

New Features 1.07:
RTA overlay with peak/RMS and decay adjustment
Auto-Timing feature (envelope control) for Compressor/Expander
Auto-Mixing algorithm for speech/conferencing
New local snapshot memory included in X AIR mixers (up to 64 complete scenes)
MIDI control for local snapshot recall

So it seems that the firmware up-date has happened a couple of versions back, right? I am unfortunately assuming you know the difference between firmware updates and application updates. And as you've pointed out, the text does say firmware.

Robert you stated that "Behringer has announced that they will add much more functionality and features to these mixers. By using your analogy we will almost never reach v1.0, since the x-air is far from feature complete."

I'm really not sure what you are talking about. I only stated that my expectation was that they (Behringer) deliver on what was stated here;
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/XR18.aspx It is Behringer's customer facing document after all. Sorry if I was not clear on that point. So to some it up, I expect a one dot oh release to include all of those features listed on that page with/without disclaimers. I hope I'm making myself clear, here.

I believe that you seem to be aware of these same facts based on your reply to this thread; http://forum.music-group.com/showthread.php?6973-Fader-Mute-Auto-Mix-Groupings where you seem to have stated; "The firmware is ready for automixing but the controlling functionality in the apps are still being worked on." Which was posted yesterday.

Hope my explanation clarifies my point of view. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't believe your explanation, points out any inconsistencies or misinformation in my statements. In fact your statement to me, quote: "This clearly indicates that this functionality won't be a part of the initial release." is actually wrong, and with the documentation I've provided in this post, seems to be proven so.

Best,

Jon Burgstrom
Volunteer Moderator

Re: XR18 latest software release (4-16-2015) question

Jon Burgstrom;47327 wrote:

Your quote comes from here:

"Revolutionary Dugan* Auto-Mixing
automatically manages microphone
gain sharing (future firmware)"

Which is located in the downloadable file http://www.behringer.com/assets/BEHRINGER_P0BI8_XR18_Product-Information-Document.pdf I believe.

Maybe it's also included in that document. However, My quote was copied from the xr18 main product page, http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/XR18.aspx, from the 5th bullet on the top of that page.

Your statement of: "This clearly indicates that this functionality won't be a part of the initial release." doesn't make much sense to me because in the document titled "X AIR Mixer Firmware V 1.07 for X18/XR18" it states that;

New Features 1.07:
RTA overlay with peak/RMS and decay adjustment
Auto-Timing feature (envelope control) for Compressor/Expander
Auto-Mixing algorithm for speech/conferencing
New local snapshot memory included in X AIR mixers (up to 64 complete scenes)
MIDI control for local snapshot recall

So it seems that the firmware up-date has happened a couple of versions back, right? I am unfortunately assuming you know the difference between firmware updates and application updates. And as you've pointed out, the text does say firmware.

Perhaps the algorithm part of the dugan auto mix is finished in firmware but other required parts are still missing in the firmware.

I agree that including this text in the release notes was unfortunate since this functionality not only depends on the firmware, but also on the controlling apps.

I think it was a honest mistake that this note was mentioned in the release notes before the controlling apps together with the full functionality in the firmware were ready, and it just adds confusion to the public.

So the current product page still stand true that automixing will come at a later time.

Robert you stated that "Behringer has announced that they will add much more functionality and features to these mixers. By using your analogy we will almost never reach v1.0, since the x-air is far from feature complete."

I'm really not sure what you are talking about.

We already know that the x-air isn't function complete since many more features are on the way. Your analogy given in some earlier post suggests that we won't reach v1.0 due to this.

In fact your statement to me, quote: "This clearly indicates that this functionality won't be a part of the initial release." is actually wrong, and with the documentation I've provided in this post, seems to be proven so.

While I'm known to not be always right and accurate, this is clearly stated on the product page that you refer to and is still in effect.

Given that and by your own words
I only stated that my expectation was that they (Behringer) deliver on what was stated here;
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/XR18.aspx

your expectation should not include the automixing functionality until further announcement. This announcement won't be some anonymous one-liner buried in some release note, but properly communicated.
Robert Lofgren | Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos and/or mark it as a solution!
Contributor - Level 2

Re: XR18 latest software release (4-16-2015) question

Hi Robert,

Maybe a better approach would be to state the correct requirements. Such as a statement like "A future software upgrade consisting of firmware and application software may include the Auto-mixing capabilities. We will update this page when each feature has been implemented.". The way it reads now, along with the supporting documentation, it is easy for one to assume that the feature exists. How would consumers become aware of what you claim "This announcement won't be some anonymous one-liner buried in some release note, but properly communicated." as standard operating procedure for Behringer?

Your statement of; "We already know that the x-air isn't function complete since many more features are on the way. Your analogy given in some earlier post suggests that we won't reach v1.0 due to this." Other than the page you point out where it says that the Auto-Mix feature requires a future firmware up-grade to work, which we both agreed could be misleading if the user reads the release notes for earlier firmware, or the forum post that you made stating that the Auto-Mix feature had been implemented in the XR18 firmware. Where the heck does it say to the consumer that the XR18 isn't function complete?

If you read my earlier posts, again given the misleading documentation both posted by you in another forum topic and the release notes from an earlier firmware release note, I stand by my analogy. A one dot oh release should have all claimed (written in a customer facing document that you pointed out) features implemented. There is plenty of space (e.g. numbers) between 0.51 and 1.0 and I suppose you can even alert the customer by providing the word BETA. Like in the instance of 1.0 BETA, so that they know there is still room for changes (a.k.a. bug fixes) due to testing. It is standard in the industry to communicate "what the current state of the software" is by using either a zero dot number release scheme such as 0.01 which infers that the application or firmware is in "alpha" state. Meaning it is not feature or function complete. Once the software, either firmware or application goes to one dot oh, it is expected to be function and feature complete, again not bug free, just feature complete.

I really don't understand why the rush to 1.0 is so important. Unless there are nefarious reasons, which I can not imagine there is, it makes sense (at least to me) to continue the alpha numbered releases for applications at least. Firmware versioning already seems to be a faux pas and would not make sense to roll back. Anyway I'm sure it is all a mute point, here.

The reason I started this thread in the first place was to ask Behringer to clarify their one dot oh release. The scheme in which they chose to use for release numbering was not what I would personally do, or practiced in over twenty five years of software and hardware development. But to each their own.