PhilroyJenkins Contributor - Level 2 2018-04-16

2018-04-16

Issue with Multi-Trigger

I believe there is an issue with the Multi-Trigger mode on the Model D. My unit has been in 1.05 since I received it about a week ago.

I made a video to demonstrate the issue here https://photos.app.goo.gl/of3iYZiVvIBgnmPx2
I compare the re-trigger mode to another synth of mine, the Prophet Rev2. I use the Rev2 as a controller for the Model D.

I start on the Rev2 and point to the Model D when I switch to it. I switch back and forth a few times but try to point to the active unit when I switch. The difference in sound should be apparent enough.

The Issue: I'm not really sure how to describe it but it seems like the Multi-Trigger mode is definitely not functioning like any other synth I've used. As you can see later in the video, any single key release on the Model D while in Multi-Trigger mode causes a key repeat. This makes it nearly impossible to use it in a musical sense.

You'd have to be so precise about hitting one key at a time that it renders the Multi-Trigger mode useless because you might as well have left it in Legato if you planned on strictly avoiding key overlaps.

I have tested this with low, high and last note priority and it seems to make no difference.

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Contributor - Level 3

Re: Issue with Multi-Trigger

Philroy Jenkins;144593 wrote:
I really appreciate your willingness to gather opinions on this specific issue but I felt like I must mention that the Original Model D did not have any kind of multi-trigger mode at all. It was only legato and the new reissue does not function this way.

The addition of a Multi-Trigger mode by Behringer is a welcome one but I still believe there is an issue with the way it behaves beyond it simply not working as I or other users expected. I strongly believe it is a bug and not a quirk.

As it stands, you have to be so precise with your avoiding overlapping two notes that it defeats the purpose of using this mode to begin with as using legato would have the same effect when not overlapping notes.


I am completely agree with Philroy Jenkins and the video he posted is self-explanatory.

That the envelopes re-triggers with the release of a key (Note Off) does not make any sense to me. It's the only synth I have that behaves that way.

Cheers
Contributor - Level 3

Re: Issue with Multi-Trigger

And I think it's an issue too because none of this behavior is explained in the manual:

4.9.1 Multi-Triggering

Multi-triggering - On: playing a new note will change the pitch and also trigger the filter and loudness contour envelopes.

Multi-triggering - Off (default, Legato): playing a new note will change the pitch, but with no new triggering unless all notes are released. For example, you can play a note and hold it down, and any new note will play and use the envelopes of the note being held. The second note will often play after the attack and decay time of the held note has passed, so the second note will not have the sound that the attack and decay usually give.
Super Contributor - Level 2

Re: Issue with Multi-Trigger

Felix Homann;144595 wrote:
but the combination of multi-trigger mode and key priority set to "last" is exactly what I'm used to from u-he's Repro~1 in "Retrig" mode (so I guess it's the same as on the original Pro~One).


Oh, one exception that I consider a bug on the Behringer Model D: The currently played note should never be retriggered on release of another key!

Example A:

0. Use Multi-Trigger mode with key priority "Last"
1. Play C, keep the key down. => You hear a C being played
2. Play D, keep the key down. => You hear a D, envelopes get triggered.
3. Release C key. => The already played D gets retriggered. NOT OK or EXPECTED!

The other way around a trigger on release of a key is expected and OK, like

Example B:

0. Use Multi-Trigger mode with key priority "Last"
1. Play C, keep the key down. => You hear a C being played
2. Play D, keep the key down. => You hear a D, envelopes get triggered.
3. Release D key. => You hear a C, envelopes get triggered. OK and expected!

So, contrary to my initial statement, I consider the case of Example A a bug that should be fixed.

Kind regards,
Felix
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Contributor - Level 2

Re: Issue with Multi-Trigger

Felix Homann;144608 wrote:
Oh, one exception that I consider a bug on the Behringer Model D: The currently played note should never be retriggered on release of another key!

Example A:

0. Use Multi-Trigger mode with key priority "Last"
1. Play C, keep the key down. => You hear a C being played
2. Play D, keep the key down. => You hear a D, envelopes get triggered.
3. Release C key. => The already played D gets retriggered. NOT OK or EXPECTED!

The other way around a trigger on release of a key is expected and OK, like

Example B:

0. Use Multi-Trigger mode with key priority "Last"
1. Play C, keep the key down. => You hear a C being played
2. Play D, keep the key down. => You hear a D, envelopes get triggered.
3. Release D key. => You hear a C, envelopes get triggered. OK and expected!

So, contrary to my initial statement, I consider the case of Example A a bug that should be fixed.

Kind regards,
Felix


Yes, thank you. I had trouble putting the desired result into words but your example B describes how I think we would all expect Multi-Trigger to function.
Triber Moderator

Re: Issue with Multi-Trigger

Chris Rose;144561 wrote:
I am also getting this odd behaviour in "multi trigger" mode.

I am seeing this behaviour on Firmware v 1.02 (I have not attempted to update the firmware yet). I am seeing this behaviour on the standard MIDI connection as well as the USB MIDI.

I was starting to think my unit was faulty! This has to be a bug of some kind. This behaviour is annoying and needs to be fixed.


Model D firmware 1.0.5 does actually have some improvements to the Multi-Trigger mode over 1.0.2, so I suggest updating your Model D to 1.0.5 to see if that helps. Just keep in mind that updating to the 1.0.5 firmware will set your pitch bend to a fixed +/-8 semitone range and will no longer be able to be adjusted after that.

In regards to that last point I just made, I'm told the developers are still considering a way to potentially bring back adjusting the pitch bend range after the 1.0.5 firmware update. More details on that as it develops.
Michael Lapke
Triber Moderator

Re: Issue with Multi-Trigger

Felix Homann;144595 wrote:

So for me, please, don't remove any of the current options!
If possible, I'd welcome an *additional* "multi-trigger-only-on-note-on-events-mode" though.


Felix Homann;144608 wrote:
Oh, one exception that I consider a bug on the Behringer Model D: The currently played note should never be retriggered on release of another key!


Philroy Jenkins;144618 wrote:
Yes, thank you. I had trouble putting the desired result into words but your example B describes how I think we would all expect Multi-Trigger to function.


I actually also agree with this as well. Moving forward Multi-Trigger is likely to be offered with two modes of operation:

1) As it stands right now
2) Another mode that doesn't allow a note to be re-triggered when another is released

Does that sound like an acceptable solution to everyone?
Michael Lapke
Contributor - Level 3

Re: Issue with Multi-Trigger

Felix Homann;144608 wrote:
Example B:

0. Use Multi-Trigger mode with key priority "Last"
1. Play C, keep the key down. => You hear a C being played
2. Play D, keep the key down. => You hear a D, envelopes get triggered.
3. Release D key. => You hear a C, envelopes get triggered. OK and expected!

So, contrary to my initial statement, I consider the case of Example A a bug that should be fixed.

Kind regards,
Felix


Yes. That's what I undestand as Milti-Trigger too.

Other improvement could be to have independent Multi-Trigger for Filter and Aplitude envelopes. But I would be happy with the Example B behavior.

Michael Lapke;144627 wrote:
In regards to that last point I just made, I'm told the developers are still considering a way to potentially bring back adjusting the pitch bend range after the 1.0.5 firmware update. More details on that as it develops.


Bravo!
Super Contributor - Level 2

Re: Issue with Multi-Trigger

Michael Lapke;144628 wrote:
I actually also agree with this as well. Moving forward Multi-Trigger is likely to be offered with two modes of operation:

1) As it stands right now


I hope that 1) includes a change such that in (Multi-Trigger with key priority Last) mode step 3 in my example A gets corrected (i.e. the D won't be retriggered) while the scenario of example B (using the same mode) will still work.
Contributor - Level 2

Re: Issue with Multi-Trigger

Michael Lapke;144627 wrote:
.... so I suggest updating your Model D to 1.0.5 to see if that helps.


Well, that's a bit of a problem as every attempt I've made to update my D to 1.05 or even 1.03 fails every time. I've tried everything I possibly can but it will not work, so I'm stuck on 1.02 until you guys figure out a fix.

Triber Moderator

Re: Issue with Multi-Trigger

Chris Rose;144683 wrote:
Well, that's a bit of a problem as every attempt I've made to update my D to 1.05 or even 1.03 fails every time. I've tried everything I possibly can but it will not work, so I'm stuck on 1.02 until you guys figure out a fix.



Aww please don't cry Chris.

I'm starting to get information back from our developers about this "not able to update firmware" situation with Model D. It looks likely that any "fix" would involve sending our your Model D into one of our authorized service centers to be corrected or by swapping the unit out for a brand new one that doesn't exhibit this issue. It's still not 100% clear how the "repair" route would go, so depending on your priority it looks like you will have a decision to make:

1) Keep your Model D and have the option to potentially have this fixed as a repair by an authorized service center in the future once a concrete solution is put in place.

2) Contact the authorized retailer where you purchased your Model D and have them swap it out for a new unit.

I know that's not the answer you were hoping for, but unfortunately I'm fairly certain the fix can not be done manually by customers without effectively voiding their warranty. In my opinion, the latter option would potentially provide you with zero "downtime" from your Model D.

As for others here in the topic thread, I'm still waiting to hear back with what we're deciding to do with regard to the Multi-tigger behavior that's discussed in this topic. Once I hear more I'll chime in again, thanks again for your patience.
Michael Lapke