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Re-recording tracks with an insert, with umc404hd

Contributor - Level 2
I am using the umc404hd, a digitech rp250 and reaper.
I want to run pre-recorded tracks through my rp250 as an insert. First some key assumptions I'm making, please correct me on anything:
1.Playback outputs's volume is only affected by my DAW or PC master volume.
2. With monitor set to A no playback outputs will be heard in headphones.
3. Playback outputs are line level.
4. Main out and headphones only contain audio from DAW output channels 1/2 and umc404hd inputs, but with monitor set to B only playback outputs 3/4 are heard in headphones.
** An example of what I'm thinking will work: I have tracks recorded in reaper, i want to run only the track "Vocals" through the rp250 while also being able to hear the master track so as to make adjustments in real time. So in reaper I set "Vocals" only to output on channel 3 and create a new track armed to record (named "Vocal-insert"). Then run a trs cable from playback output 3 to input 1 set to line level. Press play in reaper and adjust pc master volume to get a suffcient signal strength. Then plug rp250 into Insert 1 using an insert cable and adjust levels on the rp250 to suffcient signal strength and effect levels. I think avoiding adjustments to the pre-amp gain is a good idea. Then hit record and be able to hear the the master track mixed with my input and without original "vocals" track.
My questions are: Is this method going to cause any device damaging feedback?
Will I have latency?
7 REPLIES

Re: Re-recording tracks with an insert, with umc404hd

Contributor - Level 3
Alex Holland;160083 wrote:
I am using the umc404hd, a digitech rp250 and reaper.
I want to run pre-recorded tracks through my rp250 as an insert. First some key assumptions I'm making, please correct me on anything:


Hi Alex,

Welcome to the forums. You'll probably find this diagram useful: https://github.com/mcnster/umc-404hd-signal-path/blob/master/umc404hd.pdf

See my answers inline:


1.Playback outputs's volume is only affected by my DAW or PC master volume.
Should only be affected by the DAW track fader. Don't set the 404HD as your system audio device. Otherwise, you might end up recording system sounds, alerts, etc.


2. With monitor set to A no playback outputs will be heard in headphones.
The position of the MIX knob also affects this. (See diagram)


3. Playback outputs are line level.
Correct. However, it's been reported that the 404HD outputs are a little weak.


4. Main out and headphones only contain audio from DAW output channels 1/2 and umc404hd inputs, but with monitor set to B only playback outputs 3/4 are heard in headphones.

Correct


** An example of what I'm thinking will work: I have tracks recorded in reaper, i want to run only the track "Vocals" through the rp250 while also being able to hear the master track so as to make adjustments in real time. So in reaper I set "Vocals" only to output on channel 3 and create a new track armed to record (named "Vocal-insert"). Then run a trs cable from playback output 3 to input 1 set to line level. Press play in reaper and adjust pc master volume to get a suffcient signal strength. Then plug rp250 into Insert 1 using an insert cable and adjust levels on the rp250 to suffcient signal strength and effect levels. I think avoiding adjustments to the pre-amp gain is a good idea. Then hit record and be able to hear the the master track mixed with my input and without original "vocals" track.
My questions are: Is this method going to cause any device damaging feedback?


This should work fine, although I'd take the PC volume out of the equation. Using a combination of the "Vocals" fader to set PB3 output and Input 1's pre-amp gain would be best. Why do you want to avoid adjusting pre-amp gain?


Will I have latency?


Should be minimal but if it's too much you can compensate for it in Reaper. Simply re-align the "Vocal-Insert" track with the "Vocals" track after you've re-recorded it. I think there's also some built-in latency compensation in Reaper. Search the manual. EDIT: Section 3.35 of the Reaper 5.964 manual explains how to use ReaInsert for automatic latency compensation.

Hope this helps,
Ken
If you want "Loud", then run a piece of sheet metal through a table saw. --Ivan Beaver

Re: Re-recording tracks with an insert, with umc404hd

Contributor - Level 2
Hello Ken,
Thanks for your reply.
I did come across that diagram before when scouring these forums, thank you though.
I will change my default audio device, however the only other recording device is the built in mic on the pc which I like off because I'm paranoid.

However, it's been reported that the 404HD outputs are a little weak.

Hopefully that won't degrade the audio.

Why do you want to avoid adjusting pre-amp gain?

I thought (perhaps wrongly) that using this would be "re-amping" and could raise the noise floor or otherwise lower the quality of the audio which is why I was planning on avoiding it.

Other than that, great, except that I cannot figure out how to get audio playing through playback outputs 3/4. Reaper device settings is set to 4 outputs. The UMC audio control panel is set to 4 outputs. I tried opening the routing matrix in reaper, adding hardware outputs to both the master track and the "Vocals" track. Hopefully you or someone can help me with that, for now I'll go through the Reaper manual.
Thank you

Question: How do I get audio through playback outputs 3 and 4 on UMC404hd while using reaper?

Re: Re-recording tracks with an insert, with umc404hd

Contributor - Level 2
My last post hasn't gone through yet, but after some googling I think my problem getting audio to playback outputs 3/4 is that my audio driver was waveout and i apparently need to use ASIO. I will try this tomorrow.

Re: Re-recording tracks with an insert, with umc404hd

Contributor - Level 3
Alex Holland;160132 wrote:
My last post hasn't gone through yet, but after some googling I think my problem getting audio to playback outputs 3/4 is that my audio driver was waveout and i apparently need to use ASIO. I will try this tomorrow.

Hi Alex,

I just ran a quick test with the ReaInsert plugin and that's the way to go. I purposely sent the output of a vocal track to a digital delay FX running on another system and then brought it back into Reaper and it compensated perfectly. I did it all through SoundGrid so I didn't use the 404HD but the cabling setup we talked about earlier should work fine as well.

Don't forget to remove the "vocals" track from your Master bus otherwise you'll get a weird echo. Think "Twilight Zone".

Let me know if you have any trouble with your setup and I'll give you a hand.

Ken
If you want "Loud", then run a piece of sheet metal through a table saw. --Ivan Beaver

Re: Re-recording tracks with an insert, with umc404hd

Contributor - Level 2
I messed around doing it the way I described and was satisfied. It worked just as planned and I was able to add just the right amount of reverb and delay. I could have used Reaper fx but it's more fun twisting knobs plus it helps keep my screen clear of editing windows. This opens up some interesting possibilities. I can use the expression pedal on the rp250 to create envelopes of any effect or put a whammy on drums if I felt like it. That's all possible in reaper anyway I suppose but I find the pedal more intuitive.

I just ran a quick test with the ReaInsert plugin and that's the way to go
I also gave Reainsert a shot. It looked like a more convenient method but when I tried it the track began accelerating up ahead of the master. Enabling/disabling latency and using the ping option didn't help. I'll just stick with the first method for now.

Don't forget to remove the "vocals" track from your Master bus otherwise you'll get a weird echo. Think "Twilight Zone".
Golden Earring or Rod Serling?

Well thanks for your help. I do have a question about the UMC control panel. The output volumes were set to -11 so I put them at 0. With there being volume controls in reaper and the umc404hd itself I don't what this panel is good for but if there is there proper setting I should use please let me know. Thank you.

-Alex

Re: Re-recording tracks with an insert, with umc404hd

Contributor - Level 3
Alex Holland;160208 wrote:
I messed around doing it the way I described and was satisfied. It worked just as planned and I was able to add just the right amount of reverb and delay. I could have used Reaper fx but it's more fun twisting knobs plus it helps keep my screen clear of editing windows. This opens up some interesting possibilities. I can use the expression pedal on the rp250 to create envelopes of any effect or put a whammy on drums if I felt like it. That's all possible in reaper anyway I suppose but I find the pedal more intuitive.


I like twisting knobs as well. I have a small MIDI controller I configured and use in Reaper to control plugin effects.


I also gave Reainsert a shot. It looked like a more convenient method but when I tried it the track began accelerating up ahead of the master. Enabling/disabling latency and using the ping option didn't help. I'll just stick with the first method for now.


Sounds like you might have had the plugin on the original track not the return track? What I did was send the original "Vocals" track to "Vocals-Insert" then added the ReaInsert plugin there. The RI plugin handles the send/return IO for the external processor, so you need to record the output of the track not it's input. I set the "Vocals-Insert" track to record OUT, Mono, latency compensated.

Golden Earring or Rod Serling?

Good one. I was thinking Rod Serling but now I have to go find that GE track and break it down.


Well thanks for your help. I do have a question about the UMC control panel. The output volumes were set to -11 so I put them at 0. With there being volume controls in reaper and the umc404hd itself I don't what this panel is good for but if there is there proper setting I should use please let me know.

I don't ever remember changing those levels and mine are all set to 0dB.


Thank you.

-Alex


Glad you got it working the way you wanted.
Ken
If you want "Loud", then run a piece of sheet metal through a table saw. --Ivan Beaver

Re: Re-recording tracks with an insert, with umc404hd

Contributor - Level 2
I like twisting knobs as well. I have a small MIDI controller I configured and use in Reaper to control plugin effects.
Speaking of MIDI controllers I used my Casio LK-100 as one to record a piano part. It was cool being able to simply delete extra notes from my fat fingers. Although this keyboard's MIDI signals are all or nothing when it comes to velocity, so hard to have nuanced dynamics.
Sounds like you might have had the plugin on the original track not the return track? What I did was send the original "Vocals" track to "Vocals-Insert" then added the ReaInsert plugin there.
Whoops, yes that is what happened.
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