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Contributor - Level 2

X AIR 18 Live Gig Feedback

Hi,

I hope people will be able to help me get through my X 18 disaster. Im in a 5 piece band, I play keyboards and sing, we have Drums, Bass, 2 Guitars, Keyboards and 5 Vocal mics.

I purchased an X 18 and have had real problems with feedback.

All of the instruments are running through the mixer. Setup below:

Channel 1 - Bass Guitar (Going FOH)
Channel 2 - 5 Drums - Kick, Snare, Toms, Overhead (Kick only going to FOH, rest for monitoring)
Channel 6 - Not Used
Channel 7 - Rhythm Guitar (Line in from Amp - not FOH just for monitoring)
Channel 8 - Lead Guitar (XLR in from line 6 effects pedal - not FOH just for monitoring)
Channel 9 & 10 - Keyboards (XLR in phantom power on, from DI box, Used for FOH and Monitoring)

Channel 11 - Lead Vocal SM58 XLR in(Used FOH and Monitoring) Rhythm Guitar Player
Channel 12 - 2nd Vocals (Jack in from Digitech VL3d Vocal, Used FOH and Monitoring) Keys Player
Channel 13 - 3rd Vocals SM58 XLR in (Used FOH and Monitoring) Bass Player
Channel 14 - 4th Vocals SM58 XLR in (Used FOH and monitoring) Lead Guitarist
Channel 15 - 5th Vocals Headset XLR in (Used FOH and Monitoring) Drummer

AUX 4 - IEM for drummer
AUX 5 - IEM for keys player
AUX 6 - On stage Monitors
MAIN L & R - Going out to PA

So in our practise sessions all is going well and it sounds really good we have 2 stage monitors for vocals and keys. 2 of us are using IEMS. So we have 3 monitor mixes. The 2 backline guitar amps are used to amplify the guitars.

We mainly play pub/club gigs. So small local pubs. We arrived at our gig on Friday, setup all of the above. I have a windows tablet that controls the mixer. I have a scene saved on a file. I'm not using any of the on-board effects because I haven't mastered them yet and I don't know enough about them to use them. So i'm reading up on these and learning as we go.

We sound checked all was fine. We started playing and got into our first song and we got horrendous feedback through the speakers. It was coming through the vocal mic's. Particularly the lead guitarist and rhythm guitarist.

We have a db meter and drummer is sitting anywhere between 85-95db depending how excited he gets. To get anywhere near that with the vocal mics the gain on the vocal mics has to be right up. The vocal mics get to 97db and they are feeding back. We tested our old analogue mixer last night, we got the vocal mics to 120db with no feedback at all. The gains are so high on the x 18 the guitar amps are also coming through the pa. We don't get this on our old analogue mixer. After a heated discussion they have deemed the XR18 un fit for purpose and we are using our old analogue mixer again. Which is also a Behringer. As I said I haven't used any effects. Experimenting last night I could get rid of the guitar amps coming through the mics by using the noise gate. But we still cant turn the mics up to a decent level with a reasonable gain without getting feedback. We have 3 different PA's between we have tried them all and the result is the same.

We cant even use our monitor speakers with the X 18 because that just makes the problem 10 times worse. We turned he monitors off Friday night and still have feedback. Im not an experienced sound guy, I have never had much to do with effects. I have read all these forums and cant find anything on here that is remotely near the same issue which is good news because I myself haven't given up hope on XR18. Im hoping there are some settings or inserts I can use to get these issues fixed. I cant believe that our old Analogue mixer can give us more power then our digital XR 18. Please please help. We have spent money on this kit as a band and the next step was to get 5 p16-m's all go IEM and get rid of the monitors. This is definitely not happening at the minute. I am really disappointed, we hoped this would improve our playing and save space time and equipment. We got horrendous feedback from our gig Friday night and it wasn't our playing it was the setup. Please please if anyone out there has any ideas please respond. All ideas are welcome. We really want this to work, but don't want the stress on a gig with audio feedback and be without any stage monitors.

Regards

Stuart
StuartMoran Contributor - Level 2 2015-07-15

2015-07-15

X AIR 18 Live Gig Feedback

Hi,

I hope people will be able to help me get through my X 18 disaster. Im in a 5 piece band, I play keyboards and sing, we have Drums, Bass, 2 Guitars, Keyboards and 5 Vocal mics.

I purchased an X 18 and have had real problems with feedback.

All of the instruments are running through the mixer. Setup below:

Channel 1 - Bass Guitar (Going FOH)
Channel 2 - 5 Drums - Kick, Snare, Toms, Overhead (Kick only going to FOH, rest for monitoring)
Channel 6 - Not Used
Channel 7 - Rhythm Guitar (Line in from Amp - not FOH just for monitoring)
Channel 8 - Lead Guitar (XLR in from line 6 effects pedal - not FOH just for monitoring)
Channel 9 & 10 - Keyboards (XLR in phantom power on, from DI box, Used for FOH and Monitoring)

Channel 11 - Lead Vocal SM58 XLR in(Used FOH and Monitoring) Rhythm Guitar Player
Channel 12 - 2nd Vocals (Jack in from Digitech VL3d Vocal, Used FOH and Monitoring) Keys Player
Channel 13 - 3rd Vocals SM58 XLR in (Used FOH and Monitoring) Bass Player
Channel 14 - 4th Vocals SM58 XLR in (Used FOH and monitoring) Lead Guitarist
Channel 15 - 5th Vocals Headset XLR in (Used FOH and Monitoring) Drummer

AUX 4 - IEM for drummer
AUX 5 - IEM for keys player
AUX 6 - On stage Monitors
MAIN L & R - Going out to PA

So in our practise sessions all is going well and it sounds really good we have 2 stage monitors for vocals and keys. 2 of us are using IEMS. So we have 3 monitor mixes. The 2 backline guitar amps are used to amplify the guitars.

We mainly play pub/club gigs. So small local pubs. We arrived at our gig on Friday, setup all of the above. I have a windows tablet that controls the mixer. I have a scene saved on a file. I'm not using any of the on-board effects because I haven't mastered them yet and I don't know enough about them to use them. So i'm reading up on these and learning as we go.

We sound checked all was fine. We started playing and got into our first song and we got horrendous feedback through the speakers. It was coming through the vocal mic's. Particularly the lead guitarist and rhythm guitarist.

We have a db meter and drummer is sitting anywhere between 85-95db depending how excited he gets. To get anywhere near that with the vocal mics the gain on the vocal mics has to be right up. The vocal mics get to 97db and they are feeding back. We tested our old analogue mixer last night, we got the vocal mics to 120db with no feedback at all. The gains are so high on the x 18 the guitar amps are also coming through the pa. We don't get this on our old analogue mixer. After a heated discussion they have deemed the XR18 un fit for purpose and we are using our old analogue mixer again. Which is also a Behringer. As I said I haven't used any effects. Experimenting last night I could get rid of the guitar amps coming through the mics by using the noise gate. But we still cant turn the mics up to a decent level with a reasonable gain without getting feedback. We have 3 different PA's between we have tried them all and the result is the same.

We cant even use our monitor speakers with the X 18 because that just makes the problem 10 times worse. We turned he monitors off Friday night and still have feedback. Im not an experienced sound guy, I have never had much to do with effects. I have read all these forums and cant find anything on here that is remotely near the same issue which is good news because I myself haven't given up hope on XR18. Im hoping there are some settings or inserts I can use to get these issues fixed. I cant believe that our old Analogue mixer can give us more power then our digital XR 18. Please please help. We have spent money on this kit as a band and the next step was to get 5 p16-m's all go IEM and get rid of the monitors. This is definitely not happening at the minute. I am really disappointed, we hoped this would improve our playing and save space time and equipment. We got horrendous feedback from our gig Friday night and it wasn't our playing it was the setup. Please please if anyone out there has any ideas please respond. All ideas are welcome. We really want this to work, but don't want the stress on a gig with audio feedback and be without any stage monitors.

Regards

Stuart

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Contributor - Level 2

Re: X AIR 18 Live Gig Feedback

Feedback depends also on the room resonance and reflexions, the mic gain, the EQ you applied, the speaker you are using and speakers positions....
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Contributor - Level 2

Re: X AIR 18 Live Gig Feedback

Very similar setup to what I am using. XR18 with 5 vocal mics, plus Guitar, Bass, Keys, Drums. In my experience, the XR18 itself does not affect feedback compared to any other mixer.

Is it possible that you have boosted some frequencies on one or more of the mic channels, and that is the cause of the problem? I'd start off by ensuring that all the mic channels are set to a flat EQ curve with just a Lo-Cut filter below about 100Hz.
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Contributor - Level 2

Re: X AIR 18 Live Gig Feedback

When you say gain, do you mean preamp gain or fader level? What amps/speakers are you using? Where is the gain/trim on those. The xr has a lower output to the mains than a lot of analog mixers. Proper gain staging will help. Maybe hire a professional to help you get there? Then you should be good to go.
Contributor - Level 2

Re: X AIR 18 Live Gig Feedback

Where are you bringing your mics up to as far as input gain goes? Analog levels? (Near 0) or digital levels? (-18 to -12 ish)

Also, you say you're not running an FX because you haven't quite learned them yet.. is it possible that you have unknowingly created a feedback loop with the FX snd-on-fader section of the mixer while you've been maybe messing around trying to learn?
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Contributor - Level 2

Re: X AIR 18 Live Gig Feedback

Weird. On the X32s, I have no problem getting the vox on top of the 100dBA+ instruments without any feedback. Always start the EQ flat and make cuts where they are needed. On female vox, I may boost a little 100-250Hz. I end up with a very full, warm, and eargasmic sound lol.

What are your compression settings? Are they all in the channel path or monitors. Compression/make-up gain can sometimes cause feedback, but I'm more concerned with your gain settings. I don't ever go above +35dB on the gain screen for the old Sennheiser wireless vox or we can get feedback. Maybe you should try a different mic or it could be a bug. Mute all of the effect returns (third layer) just to be sure it's not an FX feedback loop.

*Side note... I run my shows within the OSHA recommended SPL regs lol... I just like to push it from time to time during soundcheck.
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Contributor - Level 2

Re: X AIR 18 Live Gig Feedback

How about a DEEP breath here. The X18 is NOT the issue - I can state that with complete confidence. How the X18 is set MAY BE the issue. As with all troubleshooting, you need to start with one channel and work up from there. Toss the db meter aside - it has no bearing on the issue you are dealing with. SM-58s are just about the industry standard so that's not the issue either. As a professional sound engineer (who is also a musician - but not the other way around) I often see people who succumb to the "try this" approach to finding a problem. As has been hinted at but not said, reset everything to zero. Kill all compression, gates, and effects. Start with a vanilla setup. It is clear you have learned how to set your "old" board but I dare say it was trial and error. I work with about a dozen top boards (depending on venue) but the concepts are the same. I would strongly suggest you learn the concepts then apply them to the X18. As someone suggested, hire a mentor for one or two jobs and learn from them - but hire someone who really knows sound; there are a LOT of self-proclaimed experts running around.

As an 'old hand' at this in the waning years of my sound life, I am happy to help the next generation learn the basics so they can make good sound so they can make good music. You don't start out driving at the Indy 500, its the same in music and sound. Feel free to private message me if you wish to continue this discussion.
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Contributor - Level 2

Re: X AIR 18 Live Gig Feedback

Is there a recommended input vu meter value on the XR when you set the gain?
what is included in the input vumeter? (eq comp too?)
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Contributor - Level 2

Re: X AIR 18 Live Gig Feedback

-12 - -18. I think it is post preamp standard, but you might be able to change that.
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Contributor - Level 2

Re: X AIR 18 Live Gig Feedback

Dan Stay;54542 wrote:
Is there a recommended input vu meter value on the XR when you set the gain?
what is included in the input vumeter? (eq comp too?)


Where green meets yellow on each channel input LED is the -18 to -12 range. That's the rule of thumb range for optimal digital input.