Bad experience with AES50 to act as split snake to between M32C/DL32 as FOH and X32 as IEM Mixer
Contributor - Level 3

Bad experience with AES50 to act as split snake to between M32C/DL32 as FOH and X32 as IEM Mixer

I have a Midas M32C & DL32 that we always use with all our IEMs (in Stereo) connected to the AUX sends (4 wireless and our drummer is wired).   We have it setup with great mixes until we get a new sound guy that continually plays with gains changing our IEMS all night long.   I decided we had enough and tried tonight to connect our M32C/DL32 to act as FOH and use our DL32 AES50 B to connect to a X32 rack system.   I was able to get it all connected and working however, when testing it during band practice tonight the same issues prior appear that they will still be a problem as the AES50 doesn't allow a complete independant connection between the FOH and IEM Mixer in this case. They both share the gains of FOH which will be a problem again with a sound guy that likes to continually change gains.   Am I doing something wrong?  if not, why would anyone recommend AES50 split between FOH and IEM mixers?  

My goal is to give my band complete flexibility of EQing each channel to their liking within their IEMS. Right now by using just the M32C/DL32 after FOH is set we can change EQ of just their stereo Bus sends to assist but that's it.   I did purchase a 32 channel split snake this week and haven't tried it yet as I wanted to try the easier solution with AES50 split first.  If everyone agrees that we can never get true independant mixes this way for our IEMs that won't be affected by FOH, is my only solution to use an Anolog split snake?  And if so, what is the best way to give each musician what they want in their IEMs?  I'm willing to work with each musician until the EQ, FX, etc. is to their liking, I know if the drummer likes his kit mixed a specific way in his IEMs everyone gets what he prefers but seems to be the most fair as each gets to choose their own mix of their instrument, correct?

I would appreciate any pointers on this topic ASAP as I need a solution by this Friday so we can start and end with the same great mix in our IEMS regardless of what FOH does.

Thanks in advance,  Danny K

 

DannyKurywchak Contributor - Level 3 2019-08-06

2019-08-06

Bad experience with AES50 to act as split snake to between M32C/DL32 as FOH and X32 as IEM Mixer

I have a Midas M32C & DL32 that we always use with all our IEMs (in Stereo) connected to the AUX sends (4 wireless and our drummer is wired).   We have it setup with great mixes until we get a new sound guy that continually plays with gains changing our IEMS all night long.   I decided we had enough and tried tonight to connect our M32C/DL32 to act as FOH and use our DL32 AES50 B to connect to a X32 rack system.   I was able to get it all connected and working however, when testing it during band practice tonight the same issues prior appear that they will still be a problem as the AES50 doesn't allow a complete independant connection between the FOH and IEM Mixer in this case. They both share the gains of FOH which will be a problem again with a sound guy that likes to continually change gains.   Am I doing something wrong?  if not, why would anyone recommend AES50 split between FOH and IEM mixers?  

My goal is to give my band complete flexibility of EQing each channel to their liking within their IEMS. Right now by using just the M32C/DL32 after FOH is set we can change EQ of just their stereo Bus sends to assist but that's it.   I did purchase a 32 channel split snake this week and haven't tried it yet as I wanted to try the easier solution with AES50 split first.  If everyone agrees that we can never get true independant mixes this way for our IEMs that won't be affected by FOH, is my only solution to use an Anolog split snake?  And if so, what is the best way to give each musician what they want in their IEMs?  I'm willing to work with each musician until the EQ, FX, etc. is to their liking, I know if the drummer likes his kit mixed a specific way in his IEMs everyone gets what he prefers but seems to be the most fair as each gets to choose their own mix of their instrument, correct?

I would appreciate any pointers on this topic ASAP as I need a solution by this Friday so we can start and end with the same great mix in our IEMS regardless of what FOH does.

Thanks in advance,  Danny K

 

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Rising Star - Level 1

Re: Bad experience with AES50 to act as split snake to between M32C/DL32 as FOH and X32 as IEM Mixer

Hi @DannyKurywchak 

If you connected M32c<>X32Rack<>DL33 and only let the Rack have control of the pre-amps, the FOH guy could mess with digital trim without changing the monitor mixes. Using the X32 Rack gives you freedom from FOH's EQ and dynamics processing and gets you 8 (or 9 with LR) Stereo IEM mixes and each performer can control their own mix via an app.

Contributor - Level 3

Re: Bad experience with AES50 to act as split snake to between M32C/DL32 as FOH and X32 as IEM Mixer

Dave, you would be my hero if you can assist me in cofiguring it correctly!  Here's how I have everything setup now.  AES50-A of the M32C going to the AES50-A on my DL32,   AES50 B on the DL32 going to AES50 A of the X32 Rack,  AES50 B of X32 Rack going to AES50 A of the S16.  What needs to change to not allow FOH to control gains on the X32 going forward?  Thanks for your quick response and I really look forward to your next reply!  

Volunteer Moderator

Re: Bad experience with AES50 to act as split snake to between M32C/DL32 as FOH and X32 as IEM Mixer


@DannyKurywchak wrote:

AES50-A of the M32C going to the AES50-A on my DL32,   AES50 B on the DL32 going to AES50 A of the X32 Rack,  AES50 B of X32 Rack going to AES50 A of the S16.  What needs to change to not allow FOH to control gains on the X32 going forward? 


Don't configure it that way. The X32 Rack will never get preamp control because that can only be done via the DL32 A port. Here is how you should setup the interconnectivity mapping

M32C FOH [B] <-> [A] X32 Rack [B] <-> [A] DL32 [B] <-> [A] S16 (mode 3)

 

To transfer the stagebox inputs to the M32C, you need to do the following in the X32 Rack

Routing, AES50 A 

* Outputs 1-8 -> AES50 B1-8

* Outputs 9-16 -> AES50 B9-16

* Outputs 17-24 -> AES50 B17-24

* Outputs 25-32 -> AES50 B25-32

* Outputs 33-40 -> AES50 B33-40

* Outputs 41-48 -> AES50 B41-48

 

Since the X32 Rack is closest to the stageboxes, by default it will control the gains and phantom of the DL32 and S16 preamps. Just make sure none of the Setup, preamps, HA Remote settings are enabled.

 

Paul Vannatto, Volunteer Forum Administrator and Moderator Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos or mark it as a solution!
Contributor - Level 3

Re: Bad experience with AES50 to act as split snake to between M32C/DL32 as FOH and X32 as IEM Mixer

Thank you for the clarification Paul.  A couple quick follow-up questions in you don't mind;

1.  So all instruments plug into the DL32 and if we need more than 32 channels I would continue with Channel 1 of the X32Rack which would be channel 33 now, giving us a total of 48 channels?

2.  All of our IEMS would go into the DL32 Aux sends and if more aux sends are ever needed would we use Aux 1 of the X32 Rack which would now be 17?

3. Does this give us full independent control between FOH and IEM Mixer?  Acting just like using a analog Split snake? any issues to be aware of?

4.  I noticed in the routing instructions there's no mention of routing beyond 48 channels but with DL32, X32Rack and S16 thats a total of 64 inputs. Is this a limitation or is it because you mention the S16 as Mode 3 (which I need to look up what that is   )   If so, what would the S16 be used for?

Thanks again for the quick response!

Volunteer Moderator

Re: Bad experience with AES50 to act as split snake to between M32C/DL32 as FOH and X32 as IEM Mixer


@DannyKurywchak wrote:

1.  So all instruments plug into the DL32 and if we need more than 32 channels I would continue with Channel 1 of the X32Rack which would be channel 33 now, giving us a total of 48 channels?

Not necessarily. It all depends what you assign on the Routing, home (Inputs) screen of either console (M32C or X32 Rack). These inputs are assigned in banks of 8, plus the Aux In Remap (2-6). Available channels are completely different than how many channels you can mix at any one time (total is 40 - 32 standard channels, 6 Aux, USB player (x2)). In your setup, you actually have 88 available inputs (including 32 from card). 

 

2.  All of our IEMS would go into the DL32 Aux sends and if more aux sends are ever needed would we use Aux 1 of the X32 Rack which would now be 17?

The DL32 does not have Aux sends. It has 16 XLR outputs that are assigned on the X32 Rack, AES50-B screen - first 2 banks of 8. If you also want to use the X32 Rack XLR outs (x8), that would be assigned on the Routing, XLR Out screen. If you want to use the S16 (in mode 3 - see instructions) XLR outputs, that would be assigned on the Routing, AES50-B screen - third bank of 8.

 

3. Does this give us full independent control between FOH and IEM Mixer?  Acting just like using a analog Split snake? any issues to be aware of?

For the most part, yes. But only one console can control the preamps (gain and phantom) at any one time. By default, the console closest to the stagebox controls the preamps. The eco-system can be configured to provide digital trim (+-18 db) to all consoles (Setup, preamps, HA Gain Split). But that would mean that the console controlling the actual gain and phantom would have to do it on the Setup, preamps screen, not on the individual channel, config screens.

 

4.  I noticed in the routing instructions there's no mention of routing beyond 48 channels but with DL32, X32Rack and S16 thats a total of 64 inputs. Is this a limitation or is it because you mention the S16 as Mode 3 (which I need to look up what that is   )   If so, what would the S16 be used for?

The AES50 protocol is limited to 48 bidirectional (both ways) channels at 44 and 48 khz. On the X32 Rack, the XLR jacks on the back are named Local inputs. The S16 can be used for 16 more available inputs and 8 available outputs. One advantage of using multiple stageboxes is to have them closer to the actual inputs which helps reduce the cable spaghetti (and trip hazzard). For example if the DL32 was placed stage front and the S16 was placed stage rear. If you only had 16 inputs at stage front and 16 inputs stage rear, you could assign the first 2 banks of 8 to the DL32 first 16 channels and the 3rd and 4th banks to the S16 inputs. I use an SD16 and SD8 in this manner and assign the 4th bank to the X32 Rack first 8 channels.


 

Paul Vannatto, Volunteer Forum Administrator and Moderator Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos or mark it as a solution!
Contributor - Level 3

Re: Bad experience with AES50 to act as split snake to between M32C/DL32 as FOH and X32 as IEM Mixer

Thanks so much for all the valuable information Paul, I do enjoy reading your comments to others and really appreciate your experience and advice!

I would love your advice on this next statement.  It appears to me in this setup that either the FOH guy or Monitor guy ( in this case my band members wirelessly controlling their own mix) is going to get frustrated because of only one controlling the Gains/phantoms.  It seems like pulling out my new 32 channel split snake that has two 15' breakouts is the easiest as we might do that with other venues that refuse to use our board for FOH.   Would you agree?

The question now is:  When using our M32C/DL32 as an independant Monitor mixer with the split snake,  I would like to set each individual channel for each musician's liking (EQ,FX, etc.).  To clarify, I mean that the drummer will get to select how he likes all his drum channels and everyone else gets his preference, etc.  Is there an easy way in routing or other method to pass all EQ,FX, etc from each individual channel to their Bus Output of the DL32 which goes to their IEM's?   I know I can use Send On Faders to turn FX on for each person's bus but was hoping to just use what's going to their channel instead.   Any other advice to give each musician the best sound experience in their ears would be much appreciated. 

 

Volunteer Moderator

Re: Bad experience with AES50 to act as split snake to between M32C/DL32 as FOH and X32 as IEM Mixer


@DannyKurywchak wrote:

Thanks so much for all the valuable information Paul, I do enjoy reading your comments to others and really appreciate your experience and advice!

You are most welcome and thanks for the kind words.

 

It appears to me in this setup that either the FOH guy or Monitor guy ( in this case my band members wirelessly controlling their own mix) is going to get frustrated because of only one controlling the Gains/phantoms.  It seems like pulling out my new 32 channel split snake that has two 15' breakouts is the easiest as we might do that with other venues that refuse to use our board for FOH.   Would you agree?

This question does come up frequently here. Please understand that the actual physical preamps are integrated with the XLR jacks of the console and stageboxes. That is why it make sense that only one console controls these preamps at any point in time. But if a proper sound check is done where the "real gain" is determined (not "check 1, 2" and expect it to be right when the vocal is screaming into the mic during the show), then there should be no need for gain (or phantom) re-adjustment. That said, I know that is an ideal world and sometimes (like what I had this last week), soundcheck can be very short. The bottom line is that if it give peace of mind to all sound techs, use the splitters.

 

I'll tackle your last question later (have a meeting to attend).

 


 

Paul Vannatto, Volunteer Forum Administrator and Moderator Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos or mark it as a solution!
Contributor - Level 3

Re: Bad experience with AES50 to act as split snake to between M32C/DL32 as FOH and X32 as IEM Mixer

"Please understand that the actual physical preamps are integrated with the XLR jacks of the console and stageboxes." 

I did not know that and it now makes perfect sense why to two consoles can't control the one digital stagebox, thanks for this clarification. 

"But if a proper sound check is done where the "real gain" is determined (not "check 1, 2" and expect it to be right when the vocal is screaming into the mic during the show), then there should be no need for gain (or phantom) re-adjustment."

Amen!  We always get to the gig early enough for a full soundcheck and 98% of our shows we are the only band for the evening.   Our amazing sound guy moved away which greatly understood your description above on running sound.  However, for some reason the young sound guys are learning somewhere to put all channels at unity and mix all night via the Gain knobs, I don't get it...  It seems to be a wide trend lately.

"The bottom line is that if it give peace of mind to all sound techs, use the splitters."

Totally agree and I think that is what I'll setup during band practice tonight and will try to make everyone happy tonight with their in-ear mix.  I look forward to your response on the best way to give EQ, FX to all, I think I'm forced to use a shared FX across someone bus which will be OK if I use FX1 for a  plate reverb just for snare/BD, FX2 for a Hall Reverb for Vocals, FX3 Delay for vocals, and only give FX1 & FX2 to buses that want FX in them but still looking forward to hear your thoughts.   We use all our own Mics every gig so once we dial it in and save it as a scene this should keep the IEM mix 95% there for most shows.

 

Contributor - Level 3

Re: Bad experience with AES50 to act as split snake to between M32C/DL32 as FOH and X32 as IEM Mixer

"Please understand that the actual physical preamps are integrated with the XLR jacks of the console and stageboxes." 

I did not know that and it now makes perfect sense why to two consoles can't control the one digital stagebox, thanks for this clarification. 

 

    "But if a proper sound check is done where the "real gain" is determined (not "check 1, 2" and expect it to be right when the vocal is screaming into the mic during the show), then there should be no need for gain (or phantom) re-adjustment."

 

Amen!  We always get to the gig early enough for a full soundcheck and 98% of our shows we are the only band for the evening.   Our amazing sound guy moved away which greatly understood your description above on running sound.  However, for some reason the young sound guys are learning somewhere to put all channels at unity and mix all night via the Gain knobs, I don't get it...  It seems to be a wide trend lately.

 

"The bottom line is that if it give peace of mind to all sound techs, use the splitters."

 

Totally agree and I think that is what I'll setup during band practice tonight and will try to make everyone happy tonight with their in-ear mix.  I look forward to your response on the best way to give EQ, FX to all, I think I'm forced to use a shared FX across someone bus which will be OK if I use FX1 for a  plate reverb just for snare/BD, FX2 for a Hall Reverb for Vocals, FX3 Delay for vocals, and only give FX1 & FX2 to buses that want FX in them but still looking forward to hear your thoughts.   We use all our own Mics every gig so once we dial it in and save it as a scene this should keep the IEM mix 95% there for most shows.