Contributor - Level 3

Does the new Wing 48 integrate with the X32 boards?

Good Afternoon,

So, I am interested in purchasing the new Wing 48. There are some questions I have first:

Let me lay out our sound reinforcement configuration. We have 3 Behringer X32's in our current line up, as well as a Behringer S16. It runs like this:

1. Wireless Mic Inputs and Tracks run into the S16.

2. The S16 feeds the stage, into a Behringer X32 Rack. Here we add 16 channels of input from the stage, including our band and any additional vocal mics. This is also the point where we jump off our P16 Ultranet for monitoring and we output Buses to XLR out's for independent IEM's. (The main reason we have a X32 rack here instead of another S16 is because we share our space with our private school and they need to be able to conduct praise band practice during the week without having to turn the entire house system on.)

3. The signal runs from the stage, now carrying 32 channels to our house board, which is a X32 fullsize.

4. The signal then runs to our recording board, which is a X32 Compact.

All of this runs in and out of the AES50 network.

Here are my questions:

1. Can I drop the new Wing 48 into place in the "House" board slot and everything still operate? (Will I be able to process all of the signal coming from the stage and be able to send that signal out to the recording board?)

2. Does the Wing 48 allow for independent routing of sources? (The limitation with the X32 right now for me is that I have to route in groups of eight, is this true for the Wing?)

I would be interested in any insight into the pros/cons of this new board in a worshiup setting.

Thanks,

Dana

 

djmulvehill Contributor - Level 3 2020-01-09

2020-01-09

Does the new Wing 48 integrate with the X32 boards?

Good Afternoon,

So, I am interested in purchasing the new Wing 48. There are some questions I have first:

Let me lay out our sound reinforcement configuration. We have 3 Behringer X32's in our current line up, as well as a Behringer S16. It runs like this:

1. Wireless Mic Inputs and Tracks run into the S16.

2. The S16 feeds the stage, into a Behringer X32 Rack. Here we add 16 channels of input from the stage, including our band and any additional vocal mics. This is also the point where we jump off our P16 Ultranet for monitoring and we output Buses to XLR out's for independent IEM's. (The main reason we have a X32 rack here instead of another S16 is because we share our space with our private school and they need to be able to conduct praise band practice during the week without having to turn the entire house system on.)

3. The signal runs from the stage, now carrying 32 channels to our house board, which is a X32 fullsize.

4. The signal then runs to our recording board, which is a X32 Compact.

All of this runs in and out of the AES50 network.

Here are my questions:

1. Can I drop the new Wing 48 into place in the "House" board slot and everything still operate? (Will I be able to process all of the signal coming from the stage and be able to send that signal out to the recording board?)

2. Does the Wing 48 allow for independent routing of sources? (The limitation with the X32 right now for me is that I have to route in groups of eight, is this true for the Wing?)

I would be interested in any insight into the pros/cons of this new board in a worshiup setting.

Thanks,

Dana

 

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Volunteer Moderator

Re: Does the new Wing 48 integrate with the X32 boards?

Hi Dana @djmulvehill 

Welcome to the forum. Nice setup you have there for the school. Here are answers to your questions

 


Can I drop the new Wing 48 into place in the "House" board slot and everything still operate? (Will I be able to process all of the signal coming from the stage and be able to send that signal out to the recording board?)

Yes for the most part. The AES50 protocol of the X32 world is identical in the new Wing world. You will be able to input those signals to channel strips as well as transfer them to the recording console. But the Wing interface is much different than the X32/M32. Also X32 scenes cannot be directly imported into the Wing, since the Wing snapshots have a totally different format than the X32 scenes. That means that you would have to setup the console "from scratch". I'm actually in the process of starting to develop an X32 scene to Wing snapshot converter. 

 

Does the Wing 48 allow for independent routing of sources? (The limitation with the X32 right now for me is that I have to route in groups of eight, is this true for the Wing?)

Yes the Wing does allow independant routing of both inputs and outputs. This of course takes a bit more time to setup, similar to the new User Inputs and Outputs introduced in the X32 4.0 firmware.

 


I would be interested in any insight into the pros/cons of this new board in a worshiup setting.

I actually haven't used it in a worship setting yet. But I am planning on doing so in the near future. First thought was to develop the scene to snapshot converter to transfer the church's scenes to the Wing. Being realistic, that is going to take some development time. Therefore I was going to start this weekend in creating the Wing snapshot from their default scene loaded in the X32-Edit as reference. If all goes well, I should have some practical exerience to share by the end of the month.

 

One thing that is still missing is a functional editing or mixing app for the computer or tablet. They are working on them, but are not ready for prime-time (at all). If the FOH engineers/techs tend to station themselves at the console, this may not be an issue (but it is to me).

 

Another thing that is missing is a written manual other than the QSG. It will take a bit of a paradigm shift in order to fully understand its design. But once that happens, it will be like when we migrated from our old analog console to the X32 (lights come on, etc.). Fortunately there are a few of us here on the forum that can assist during that learning curve.

 

 

 

Paul Vannatto, Volunteer Forum Administrator and Moderator. Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos or mark it as a solution!

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Volunteer Moderator

Re: Does the new Wing 48 integrate with the X32 boards?

Hi Dana @djmulvehill 

Welcome to the forum. Nice setup you have there for the school. Here are answers to your questions

 


Can I drop the new Wing 48 into place in the "House" board slot and everything still operate? (Will I be able to process all of the signal coming from the stage and be able to send that signal out to the recording board?)

Yes for the most part. The AES50 protocol of the X32 world is identical in the new Wing world. You will be able to input those signals to channel strips as well as transfer them to the recording console. But the Wing interface is much different than the X32/M32. Also X32 scenes cannot be directly imported into the Wing, since the Wing snapshots have a totally different format than the X32 scenes. That means that you would have to setup the console "from scratch". I'm actually in the process of starting to develop an X32 scene to Wing snapshot converter. 

 

Does the Wing 48 allow for independent routing of sources? (The limitation with the X32 right now for me is that I have to route in groups of eight, is this true for the Wing?)

Yes the Wing does allow independant routing of both inputs and outputs. This of course takes a bit more time to setup, similar to the new User Inputs and Outputs introduced in the X32 4.0 firmware.

 


I would be interested in any insight into the pros/cons of this new board in a worshiup setting.

I actually haven't used it in a worship setting yet. But I am planning on doing so in the near future. First thought was to develop the scene to snapshot converter to transfer the church's scenes to the Wing. Being realistic, that is going to take some development time. Therefore I was going to start this weekend in creating the Wing snapshot from their default scene loaded in the X32-Edit as reference. If all goes well, I should have some practical exerience to share by the end of the month.

 

One thing that is still missing is a functional editing or mixing app for the computer or tablet. They are working on them, but are not ready for prime-time (at all). If the FOH engineers/techs tend to station themselves at the console, this may not be an issue (but it is to me).

 

Another thing that is missing is a written manual other than the QSG. It will take a bit of a paradigm shift in order to fully understand its design. But once that happens, it will be like when we migrated from our old analog console to the X32 (lights come on, etc.). Fortunately there are a few of us here on the forum that can assist during that learning curve.

 

 

 

Paul Vannatto, Volunteer Forum Administrator and Moderator. Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos or mark it as a solution!

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Contributor - Level 3

Re: Does the new Wing 48 integrate with the X32 boards?

I appreciate the response and the knowledge. We are looking into upgrading our FOH board and then moving the X32 to our youth building. Importing Scenes from the X32 would be nice but since I am only changing out 1 of the the 3 boards in the line it is not that big of a deal. I built the current setup from scratch beofre and feel like having to do it for the Wing would just be a good way to ge to know the board anyway. Here is another question, since there is no native PC/Tablet application are you aware of anyone (i.e. davidgiga1993) who may be working on an external control solution? 

Volunteer Moderator

Re: Does the new Wing 48 integrate with the X32 boards?


@djmulvehill wrote:

since there is no native PC/Tablet application are you aware of anyone (i.e. davidgiga1993) who may be working on an external control solution? 


David is also part of the beta testing team and he is working on his as well. He's good, but doesn't feed the 5000 in an instant... and the Wing uses a different protocol than the X32 (OSC) for external control.

 

One other thing I should mention. The Wing currently only uses snapshots, which are equivalent to scenes (X32). Currently it doesn't have the equivalent to cues or snippets. If you are regularly using either of these, that part of the Wing is not yet developed. They are working on that and actually consulting users (theatrical, etc.) in order to develop an enhanced interface.

 

Paul Vannatto, Volunteer Forum Administrator and Moderator. Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos or mark it as a solution!
Contributor - Level 3

Re: Does the new Wing 48 integrate with the X32 boards?

At the moment we really only use Scenes for recalling our weekly shows (Sunday, Wednesday and School shows). So if snapshots operate in a similiar fashion to Scenes then we would be fine. The only time we have used cues or snippets is if/when we get heavily involved in a drama that requires multi-changes within any given scene, but honestly we don't really do that very often. (I realize that there are many other uses for cues and snippets, but with the limited experience volunteer pool I usually have to work with I try to keep things as simple as possible.)

My only hang up at this moment is that adding this board in line with the setup that I have is not really going to increase the amount of inputs I have available. With this posistion being the second of three boards in line I am still going to be limited to the inputs I am feeding to it, and won't be able to feed anything back to the stage, and wouldn't have the routing capabilities to handle more inputs on the X32 Rack anway. (Working within the limitations of having to route in blocks of 8 is still my biggest limitation on the X32 series.) The importance of having everything originate at the stage is tied directly to being able to monitor every source on the stage during practices where the "House" isn't engaged. Thus feedig "new" inputs into the FOH board isn't feasible unless for some reason those new inputs would never be needed to be monitored from the stage....

Sorry if I am rambling, I guess having a sounding wall to bounce my thoughts off of is something I don't really have access to. Thank you again for all your insight and answers. I am still pushing to get the Wing, if for no other reason than it gives me a digital board to give to the youth and it gives me a chance to increase my knowldge in my field...and a new toy doesn't hurt!! Smiley Happy

Volunteer Moderator

Re: Does the new Wing 48 integrate with the X32 boards?


@djmulvehill wrote:

So if snapshots operate in a similiar fashion to Scenes then we would be fine.


Yes as far as I can see, snapshots save all Wing settings, whereas scenes save almost all X32 settings (global settings are the exception). And I did discover that by parsing out (extracting) specific commands (eg. channel 1 name) and saving as a separate (modified) snapshot, it will function like a snippet (same as what I do with the X-Air consoles). 

 


with the limited experience volunteer pool I usually have to work with I try to keep things as simple as possible.

I have the same situation with my church. Even though I've developed apps to create snippets and online apps with snippet like functions (called tidbits), they are never used at my church, due to this same reason.

 


My only hang up at this moment is that adding this board in line with the setup that I have is not really going to increase the amount of inputs I have available.

Input capacity has more to do with the availability of stageboxes, etc. Mixing capacity is directly involved with the specific console. The Wing can potentially mix up to 48 stereo channels at any one time, whereas the X32 can only mix up to 38 mono channels (plus the USB recorder) at any one time. Granted, you are still limited to the AES50 48 channel bidirectional limitations. But the Wing has 3 AES50 ports. If you do need more inputs to FOH than the other console functionality (monitors and recording), you could add another AES50 cable from FOH to the stage.

 


(Working within the limitations of having to route in blocks of 8 is still my biggest limitation on the X32 series.)

Have you upgraded to firmware 4.01 yet? It now has User Inputs and User Outputs that circumvent the bank of 8 limitations, and works surprisingly well. 

 


Thus feedig "new" inputs into the FOH board isn't feasible unless for some reason those new inputs would never be needed to be monitored from the stage....

Are you need to process/mix more inputs than the X32 allows at the monitor world? What are you using for monitor processing? Are you using only mixbuses and tablets (for control), or are you using P16 personal mixers? Have you considered the new DP48 that uses the AES50 instead of the Ultranet to feed it, providing all 48 channels to the DP48? What exactly are the limitations you are faced with there?

 


Sorry if I am rambling, I guess having a sounding wall to bounce my thoughts off of is something I don't really have access to. 

That's the whole reason for this forum and why I spend so much time here. Glad to help you think it through and find a workable solution to your situation.

 

Paul Vannatto, Volunteer Forum Administrator and Moderator. Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos or mark it as a solution!
Contributor - Level 3

Re: Does the new Wing 48 integrate with the X32 boards?

So, speaking to the monitoring issue, right now we are using P16's on stage fed out of the Behringer Powerplay Distributer. We have all 16 MixBuses on the X32 Rack assigned to a corresponding channel on the P16 and labeled for use by muscians and vocalists. (i.e. MixBus 1 is Stage, 2 is Choir, 3 is Keys, 4 is Drums and so forth). So, my drummer comes in, turns on the tablet, connects to the rack and then selects MixBus 4 and then can mix all 32 channels as needed. This setup works well for us in both the church and school setups. We even have supplied all the tablets and tablet mic stand holders so that everybody uses the same devices to connect and can help each other learn together.

Here is my limitation at the moment. So, to review my signal flow....

1. I feed 14 wireless mics and 2 track channels into an S16 that is installed in my FOH world.

2. That feed runs through AES50 to my stage, into a X32 Rack. This rack outputs to a Powerplay distributer to feed my P16's (7 of them). And outputs from the XLR outs to 3 IEM transmiters. At this point, using local inputs, it adds 8 channels of instuments (through a rack mounted 8 channel DI) and 8 channels of mic input (through a rack mounted 8 channel xlr patch panel). Then it sends 32 channels of signal (16 from the S16 and 16 from local inputs) back to the FOH world. 

3. The FOH board is a full size X32, recieving all 32 channels from the stage. Here I have all 32 channels routed from the AES50 input and have my Auxes routed locally so I can feed in signals from 2 computers for playing pre/post service music that I don't need running through the stage/monitor mix. Here is where all 40 channels of routing is full. From here I pass the same 32 channels coming from the stage through the AES50(A) out of the AES50(B) to our recording board.

4. The recording board is a X32C. We take in all 32 channels and output to a Cerevo box for streaming to Facebook and Youtube. We also output to a 4 channel distributing amp to feed a Zoom audio recorder and house Hearing Impaired system.

My input of 2 Channel audio is my current hang up. I have 4 sources that I need to feed audio into the system. A Computer, A CD Player, an iPad (running the multitrack app Playback), and an audio Chromcast. Right now I have these 4 signals running into a Behringer Eurorack Pro, then sending 2 Channels (left and right) out to the 15 and 16 inputs on my S16 (where all signal in my system begins). I would love to break these signals out seperatly on the system, but am limited by the amount of signal I can carry. Now, with the upgrade to 4.01 I think the User assignable routing can solve "some" of my issues. Here is my question.

If I buy an SD8 and plug all my audio inputs into it, can I run it into the AES50(A) on my S16 and then add the 16 inputs locally on my S16, then can I output 24 channels through the AES50(B) to my X32 Rack AES50(A)? Then add 16 local inputs there and pass the AES50(B) to my FOH and get all 40 inputs in to my X32 at FOH? Then using User inputs, select any of those 40 signals coming in through the AES50(A) and assign them where needed? And then pass all of that signal out of the AES50(B) to my recording world into the X32C AES50(A), and have a completly operational system with all inputs available everywhere?

The main question there is wether I can put 8 channels into the S16 and then output 24 channels to the X32 rack.

 

Sigh.....okay. Laying all that out helps see the bigger picture. After all that is said and done, I am still entertaining the idea of putting the Wing in my FOH posistion. As long as I can make it all work. Smiley Happy

Volunteer Moderator

Re: Does the new Wing 48 integrate with the X32 boards?

Hi Dana @djmulvehill 

Just got back from doing sound for an all day (monthly) jamboree. I'll look over your post and respond accordingly (probably tomorrow).

 

Paul Vannatto, Volunteer Forum Administrator and Moderator. Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos or mark it as a solution!
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Volunteer Moderator

Re: Does the new Wing 48 integrate with the X32 boards?

Hi Dana @djmulvehill,

Rereading your last post, I do feel that the Wing is going to help you immensely in the FOH world. Allow me to explain by answering a few of your questions.

 


My input of 2 Channel audio is my current hang up. I have 4 sources that I need to feed audio into the system. A Computer, A CD Player, an iPad (running the multitrack app Playback), and an audio Chromcast. Right now I have these 4 signals running into a Behringer Eurorack Pro, then sending 2 Channels (left and right) out to the 15 and 16 inputs on my S16 (where all signal in my system begins). I would love to break these signals out seperatly on the system, but am limited by the amount of signal I can carry.

Yes that is definitely the limit issue you are faced with. In essence, you have reached the limitation of the X32/M32 eco-system. Each console can only input 38 channels (4 banks of 8, plus the Aux In Remap (6 inputs)). The other 2 are for the stereo USB player. Also the X32/M32 channels are mono in nature. They can be stereo linked. But they are still mono in nature. Finally there is the bank of 8 limitations in the block assignments (Inputs, AES50, card out and XLR Out (bank of 4)). The new User In and User Out patch screens help in circumventing this limitations. But the limitation (bank of 8) still exists.

 

The Wing has been completely redesigned with these limitations in mind. It has the capability of handling 48 stereo channels (instead of the 40 mono in X32/M32). These channels can be configured as mono, stereo, or mid/side. The bank of 8 limitations does not exist. Each input and output groups (eg. AES50) are individually assigned. It does have physical 8 XLR (Midas Pro preamps) and 8 Aux inputs on the back of the console as well as other digital interfaces (eg. 3 AES50 ports). 

 

To answer you question above, you could plug in those peripherals (computer, CD player, iPad, Chromcast) into the Aux In jacks, or add an additional stagebox (eg. SD8) to the S16 (cascaded S16 B port to SD8 A port). With the latter, it will automatically shift the SD8 inputs to the 3rd bank of 8 in the AES50 feed to the console (which answers your other question).

 


If I buy an SD8 and plug all my audio inputs into it, can I run it into the AES50(A) on my S16 and then add the 16 inputs locally on my S16, then can I output 24 channels through the AES50(B) to my X32 Rack AES50(A)? Then add 16 local inputs there and pass the AES50(B) to my FOH and get all 40 inputs in to my X32 at FOH? Then using User inputs, select any of those 40 signals coming in through the AES50(A) and assign them where needed? And then pass all of that signal out of the AES50(B) to my recording world into the X32C AES50(A), and have a completly operational system with all inputs available everywhere?

The main question there is wether I can put 8 channels into the S16 and then output 24 channels to the X32 rack.


Yes you can do all of that (and more) with the Wing as the main hub of your new eco-system. Again I mention that the 40 inputs you mention are in reality 38 mono with the X32 console, but 48 stereo with the Wing.

 


After all that is said and done, I am still entertaining the idea of putting the Wing in my FOH posistion. As long as I can make it all work. Smiley Happy

That is where we can help. I have 2 X32 Racks, the Wing and some stageboxes (2 SD8, 1 SD16) here and can set it all up to test out all of the intricate routing requirements. I have also figured out how to parse out specific sections of the Wing snapshots that will allow me to send you routing only snapshots (function like a snippet). 

 

Paul Vannatto, Volunteer Forum Administrator and Moderator. Did you find my post helpful? Give kudos or mark it as a solution!